I apologize now for the run-on post: But this one is rather important for me.

My current SBF motor will have a new home this spring... And it will be a play toy only.

A buddy of mine has a freshly machined 0.030" 351w roller block (cleared to 4.00 crank) that originally was to be mated with a '68 ranchero. Well he recently decided a 302 roller block for his drag project would be the best bet. Well I wanted a 351 roller block... so we started to exchange ideas. My current build was way too stout for the rpm range it sees (as he reminds me weekly) and I wouldn't mind the low end grunt the extra cubes could pull out from a 351. Long story short... my forged piston 306 will become a carbed heavy breather mated to ported FMS y303 heads and a modified 2700# ranchero with an explorer 8.8 with 3.73 gears and a mustang II front end. I'd love to snag some ideas for the drag car for this spring... but right now I want to get my 351w build done correctly. The snow won't be clear until late March... so the ranchero will see little use until late Spring.

The gentleman who got me into small block Fords passed away last winter. He was my be-all end-all source for engine information and also put together the correct parts and machine work for my last two motors. The assembly I am not worried with.. it's collecting the right parts prior that worries me. In other words... I need the real expert help (i.e. Baddad, Conanski, HemiEater, 51Dueller etc. etc.)

Here is my current list for the build (open to ideas!)

-351w 0.030" over
-3.85" crank Std/Std
-Stock length 351 w I beam Eagle rods (5.956")
-KB364 hyper pistons (-22cc dish)
-60cc chambered head (Eddy, TFS, AFR... whatever I can get used!)
-30# injectors
-75mm MAF
-Fuel rail from the 302 could be modified to accept the wider deck. Ideas?
-Superchips Custom Tuning with the aid of an Innovate wideband and my laptop.

I plan on using a thick head gasket (0.040-0.050) and keep the CR below 10. 9.5:1 would be ideal. Not sure as to exact measurements for piston to deck height... but my calculations put this right at 9.7:1.

Camshaft I've been looking at is the 35-412-8 (260 duration 480 lift- ex and intake). I'd get more aggressive but this short duration cam produced 27 ft/lb's more TQ and 18 more HP at 2000 rpm than other beefier cams from Dyno2003. I'd prefer the low end grunt than a dozen more HP at 5000+ rpm. Open to suggestions.

-As for Rings and bearings. What brand? Part numbers?
-EFI intake will be a typhoon Edelbrock rip off or a TFS if one shows up used. What accelerator linkage would be compatible with a single TB?

-Who out there has modified a Gt-40 intake/accelerator cable to work for a truck?

-Any thoughts on using a truck 5.8 intake? What kind of bottleneck? Porting options?

Again... I apologize for the ridiculously long post. Just trying to do this right the first time.

Thanks in advance for your expert help!
Mike

 

As far as setting up the throttle linkage, if you can get a hold of a 93 Cobra or 96-01 Explorer throttle body then you can set it up to look factory. You just need the throttle lever off a 1986-91 Crown vic (my pic shows the mustang setup but the Crown Vic just has the attachments reversed). To use the Crown Vic throttle cable you would need two bosses welded (which will need to be tapped) to one of the many aftermarket EGR spacers to mount the Crown Vic cable bracket. If you need a tb bigger than 65mm then this won't work since the aftermarket tb's don't share the same shaft.

I don't know if I'm a expert by any means, I've just done some research into the factory intake setups.

Just ignore the red arrows on the 3rd picture.

 

Those pics certainly help dueller. Gives me a few ideas if and when the fabricating begins. Did you use the truck accelerator cable for the crown vic 65mm TB you adapted. I was planning on running an aftermarket 70 or 75mm TB with matching MAF and EGR plate... i.e. pro products, BBk

Is there a way to use the current accelerator cable in the truck with one of these larger single bladed TB's?

Any input on rings? brand, part number?

Bearing sets? Or would I purchase rod, main and cam separate?

I have the block machined and ready. I also have the crank in hand. But it will be sent off for balance with rods, pistons, dampener and flexplate after they are purchased.

Flexplate should be a c6/e4 with 164 teeth? Is this correct? Will a flexplate from a c-6 work? (I've got one from a 78 351w mated to a c6 sitting in the shop)

Also... any verification out there on the compression ratio would be great. I want to make sure I stay below 10:1.

Thanks,
Mike

 

I guess I should explain a little better. I'm still in the gathering phase for my 5.4L stroker for my 1951 Mercury truck. I have a 1996 Explorer 5.0L intake with a 93 Lightning EGR spacer.

I have it setup the same as the 86-93 Mustangs with a 86-90 Cougar throttle linkage (easier to find than the Mustangs).

This is the current setup on the 5.0L currently in the truck.

The Lightning EGR spacer is capable of running both styles of throttle linkages.

Since you want to go with an aftermarket throttle body, my information won't be too much help since each brand has their own setup which won't interchange with the factory stuff. I'm sure you could make the stock truck cable fit but you may find it to be too long.

As far as your stroker assembly, your piecing it together? I've just ordered the complete Scat 331 kit which includes the bearings, dampner and flywheel. Plus everything has been balanced so I just have to assemble it.

Offtopic:
I plan on getting a plate like this made for my intake. It'll make people do a double take.

 

That would certainly make me scratch my noggin! I'll bug you further regarding the car style intake mod later for sure. I just wanted to make sure I could make it work with parts I have. ANd if not, what would be needed to swap to attain full EGR function,TPS, IAC working properly, and the accelerator and throttle linkage.

What accelerator cable and/or bracket setup did you use for your truck?

I've been leaning towards those kits. Adding up the cost of parts, shipping, and inevitable machine shop dues... it seems to be the most logical way. I sent out two request forms for 393 kits. Coast high performance makes one that would put me right at 9.4:1 (58cc head) with dampener and flexplate.

I have another question about the quench and deck height.

Is my intent for attaining 0.040-0.045" quench made by getting the deck height clearance to zero (or close to it) and using a 0.040" gasket?

Or am I assuming a clearance of 0.10" or so, and adjusting the head gasket diameter or milling the deck accordingly?

How would I accurately calculate this without assembling and measuring a piston at TDC? All of the kits I have been looking at have a rod length of 5.956 and some variation of a 302 piston. Heres an example:

http://fordstrokers.com/393-windsor-street-fighter-rotating-kit-p119.html

Sorry for the stupid questions. I'd prefer to hear your guys input after pouring over forums and old books.

Many thanks!
Mike

 

No expert here by no means............but check out the 427 kit from P.A.W. a friend of mine bought one for his boat...he loves it....

the 3.85 strock will give you a 393..... and I would look into getting the top of the piston as close to the head as passable. I have built a few High compression motors with the pistons sticking out of the block .010 so with a .041 head gasket it gets it to .031..... nice tight quench...

the closer you get the piston to the head the more compression you can run. Not a good idea to use thicker gaskets....

I have posted this before ..I'll look for it....... it's better to run a bigger dish pistons with tighter quench than it is to use a smaller dish with thicker gaskets

 

Hey thanks for the info Hemi. 427 looks sexy for sure!

With the afr heads that would make some brutal torque! I'd probably start grenading front end parts when I beat on the truck in 4wd though...

I'm sticking with the 393 idea as I have some decent reference files I can use to burn the SCT chip for 30# injectors and E4od tranny shift schedules. Winter time the truck will see a lot of duty... so I'd like to keep the mileage bearable. I know of a similar combo in a full size bronco that gets 12-14 mpg on the highway (10ish in the city though).

The block is sitting at the machine shop at the moment.... if the deck needs some material removed I'd like to know now and have the work finished.

Is there a way to calculate the piston to deck height without assembling and measuring? Compression height, rod length? The deck on this roller windsor has not been shaved. Merely bead blasted, cleaned and checked for straightness.

Thanks for the help
M

 

You can add up the length of everything and do it that way but the machine shop will need a special jig to do it. I had my 302 done that way.... or you can mock up the rotating assy and put one pston rod assy together and mock it up in all four corners taking mesurments of how far done the hole the piston is. That's how I did another motor I built for a buddy of mine. turns out the blocks can be way out, I think the two I did were like .015 from one end to the other if my memory is correct. just to let you know if you take .030 off the block to get the pisrons .010 out, you will more than likely have to plane the intake some..... Just somthing to think about.....

 

ok the math with KB-848 pistons....1/2 the stroke 3.85/2= 1.925

add the rod length 1.925+5.956= 7.881
add the pin hiegth KB-848 7.881+1.612=9.493....on a 9.50 deck the pistons would be .007 down the hole... so mill .017 off the block..will get you to -.010

link to an auction

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KEITH-BLACK-PISTONS-FORGED-FORD-393-DISH-28-0cc-909_W0QQitemZ230184675148QQihZ013QQcategoryZ33623Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638 .m118

 

Have you tried looking for a GEN 1 Lightning throttle body/cable assembly?

As for the fuel rails, you could lengthen the lines going across or get a set of fuel rails off of a 351.

 

After looking at Blurry's engine and saw his throttle linkage on the front. I did a little more digging and found the throttle linkage diagram for the lightning (Man those Ford shop manuals are hard to navigate). I was wrong with thinking that it had a rear throttle setup like the 86-91 crown vics. I assumed this because the Lightning EGR spacer is in demand with the Crown vic guys since it allows them to retain their stock cables.

So you can use any 86-93 mustang style throttle body and you would just need the corresponding cable mounting bracket from a 86-93 mustang or 86-90 cougar (these would be easier to find than a lightning one). Your factory cable should fit and these brackets would also allow control of a C-4/C-6/AOD if desired.

Here's the diagram:

 

Yea I've considered lengthening them. Yet I wonder if this would be a one time job. I'd like to do it once and forget about it. I've seen 5.8 efi fuel rails with adjustable fpr in series.... they had me wondering (especially for $120)

Phew! I don't want to be restricted to the truck intake. Making it work correctly with bolt on parts is alot more comforting in comparison to... lets see what we can make work.... cross your fingers and buy an 18 pack!

Looks like I will be going with a 6.200 rod length and 1.350 CH with a 19.3cc dish. Which will put me right at 10.1:1 (a little higher then I'd like, but doable with aluminum) with 60 cc heads. I'll wait until I hear the response from the guys at Scat for final rotating assembly purchase.

I've recently been cheating on www.ford-trucks.com. Fordstrokers.com and www.sbftech.com have been supremely helpful. Albeit... their ideas for a 393w are completely different than mine..... i.e. 1/4 mile times and 7000 rpms!

A and might be in the works....


Oh well... bring it on

Mike

 

If you want close up pics of my throttle cable linkage/assembly, let me know and I'll take a couple and post 'em up.

My brother did a 5.0 to 5.8 swap complete with Lightning components (intakes, EGR spacer, throttle body, inlet tube etc...), and any fuel rail assembly for a 5.8 will work on a GT-40. The difference in the fuel pressure regulators is the bolt pattern i believe; some are 2 bolt and some are 3.

 

The 393 has morphed into a 408. Typical male I guess... I ordered my shortblock parts from Jim Wood at www.FordStrokers.com who was supremely helpful. Apparently, the 393 is a royal pain (and expensive!) to balance properly, without gobs of mallory metal. So the 408 is substantially cheaper. Here are the specs for the shortblock:

F4TE Roller Block

4.00 Inch Probe Crankshaft
6.250 Inch probe 5140 Steel I-Beam Rod
Probe SRS 22cc Forged 2618 Pistons 4.030
Total Seal Moly File Fit Rings
Clevite77 bearings all around

Heads will be 195cc canfields, set up by Jim Allen at www.camshaftinnovations.com to specs with his custom hydraulic roller cam. 10.2:1 compression

I will be assembling in late January and hope to be up and running by March.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blurry94

If you want close up pics of my throttle cable linkage/assembly, let me know and I'll take a couple and post 'em up.

My brother did a 5.0 to 5.8 swap complete with Lightning components (intakes, EGR spacer, throttle body, inlet tube etc...), and any fuel rail assembly for a 5.8 will work on a GT-40. The difference in the fuel pressure regulators is the bolt pattern i believe; some are 2 bolt and some are 3.

I will certainly use your advice when the motor swap is imminent. Those pictures would certainly help.
About the gt40 intake: Jim Allen suggested highly that I DO NOT run that intake. His logic was... put 351w parts on a 408 and make 351w power. Here is a tidbit from the last message I got from him and I quote:

"I have something to say that I have said a lot lately. Smaller heads, smaller intakes, smaller TB's will not make more TQ. They act like a restrictor plate and hurt power everywhere!"

He recommended the TFS-R intake with the 90mm opening. The throttle assemblies look similar but will still require some work.

Did your brother (water 5) use the same accelerator cable for the 5.0 and the 5.8?

Also, Mr. Allen is steering me away from the SCT package and towards the Tweecer r/t setup for tuning. If it were obd-2, I guess the SCT is a better choice. I haven't purchased either yet, but I would deem you quite a worthy resource for whipping the 408w into shape with 36# injectors.

Thanks again,
Mike

 

Yes, there are better intakes for a 408 application indeed. Use the one that best suites your needs.

water5 used a cable and bracket assembly for a GEN 1 Lightning, I think he picked the cable up at a local Ford dealer and he found the bracket assmebly on ebay.

I guess everyone has an opinion when it comes to tuning software. I use SCT on my GEN 1 when it was speed density and now mass air. I also used it on water5's truck when he got his motor finished. Others have used Tweecer, but most all of them mention the same thing...it's a a bit of challenge to learn to use.