Hey all, not to make another long drawn out subject, and I know the break down has been talked about before, but is there a general guideline for levels of restoration. I know the appraisers, and show judges have their guidelines, and that is what I have always been taught to go by when looking a truck over, especially when considering a purchase. My biggest question would be, I guess, does everone actually know the meaning of concours, or as factory original? What are some of the terms commonly used under that? I have always been using something like:

Original- Never touched since new, same paint as when built, same switches, *****, etc. Same interior. Probably in disrepair, with rare exceptions, but never altered from original manufactured state.
Concours Restoration-100% perfect match to factory original. Exactly as it came from manufacturer
Restored-Perfectly rebuilt, but small details may not be 100% accurate (ie, hose clamps, type of hoses, store brand parts, etc)
Resto-mod-Restored to appear as original, but with mild to moderate modifications (ie, different motor, trans, rear end, maybe disk brakes) but appears mildly modified at a glance
Hot Rod- Moderate to heavy modifications (ie, tilt hood, aggressively lowerd or altered stance, interior, engine, perhaps A/C, etc.)

The reason I ask, is the level of misunderstanding when a person goes to buy what is supposed to be a 100% original truck, and yet it has been in fact modified.

 

The entire genre of what restored means today is muddied. In my day, original meant just that. Original as it came from the factory, period. Restored. Well, there's partially restored (what does that mean?), 100% restored to original..blah blah blah. Most vehicles today that are the so-called concours restorations are over restored with features added that Henry never dreamed off.


Adding carpeting, where rubber mats were used. Installing white wall tires where none were even available originally, using narrow white walls where wide w/w tires were originally used. The reverse: adding fat w/w tires when narrow w/w's were the norm. Chroming parts originally painted, chroming nickel plated parts, swapping engines, then claiming Henry did it. Wrong exterior paint colors, engines painted with wrong colors, engine accessories chromed to the hilt. Leather instead of vinyl interiors, vinyl replacing leather, or body cloth in interiors. Cloth used instead of mohair. Painted undercarriages, metal parts powdercoated...the list goes on. All of this is perfectly OK as long as it isn't passed off as original.


I've been a car show judge (1950's/60's Fords, 1930's/50's Packards, 1956/64 Studebaker Hawks) since the 1970's and judge originality. What some ppl claim to be original today is mind boggling. No points off for: radial tires, outside mirrors...as long as they are period, and seat belts. Everything else is fair game.

 

good info, like your post.......

I've always been a race/offroader/mechanic and am still pretty new to the "resto" stuff. never working with anything older that 70's........

i always question "original" the same way i question "alittle rust" the definition folks use has a very wide range.......

another word i'm starting to really question (and not like) is "patina"......

i guess i could call my F-3 a resto-mod?
i'm using mostly period correct visable interior and exterior parts, but with some updates to the drivestrain and suspension.

 

My first experience was working with a gent, who took early pre-war Fords, in 1971-3, and made them custom for wealthy owners. Air conditioning, updated drivetrains in some, etc, etc. But, he had truly a "concours" '34 Ford Phaeton - every single nut, bolt, screw - you name it - came off a '34 Phaeton. The interior was NOS, the paint was original nitro-cellulose lacquer (if I remember correctly the name). It was truly a 100% restoration! One of the most beautiful cars I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. He sold it, and was crying as it went down the road.

All in all, it was EXACTLY as it rolled off the floor at the factory. That, to me, is concours.

I like your definitions. My truck, so far, is pretty much original. No mods yet, but will be converted to 12 volt, and down the road, maybe A/C. But it has never been "modded" in the least. I'm going to put it together, and enjoy it, with just a few minor conveniences, to bring it up to speed. Oh yeah, and seatbelts!! I will most assuredly go with a different seat, also, but not sure which one. I rather like the Ranger 60/40, from what I have seen. I think it would be difficult to find someone capable of re-doing the original seat, as it seems to be a lost art.

R

 

The most abused discription I know is "solid". I've gone to look at many "solid" trucks but when I get to the truck the only thing solid on them is rust, like solid rust. The other misdescription is that 52'F-3 says, patina. It isn't patina, copper gets a Patina, steel just rusts.

My all time favorite is "it ran when it was parked". When was it parked, sometime before the Vietnam war? Under an old tree collecting every leaf for the last forty years with the hood open. Every vehicle ran great at one time.

 

Yeah, that's a good one. What got me thinking was an ebay item. Most of you I am sure have already seen it. It is a real good looking truck, but the seller says "Exactly as it cam off the show room." Well, lloking at it, and you see wrong year trim, stainless wire tubing at the tail lites, it's a standard cab with deluxe cab trim, carpet instead of rubber mat, etc., etc. It just got me thinking about how many people get victimized by inaccurate descriptions. It does cause problems down the road for the buyer as well. If it's bought under the premise that it's perfectly original, then they go to a show and don't win against a shower with only one or two flaws, then they get all ticked off at the judge. Worst case scenario, it ends up in a law suit against the seller that falsely advertised it.....I was just thinking about it, and wanted other input whether you have experience from a bad description, or know something about the subject.

 

Personaly I think to many folks have been watching Barret/Jackson and are thinking hum that old thing out in the pasture under the tree is worth a mint.never mind its been sitting for the past 35 years. To me its what ever your vision is for your truck that inspires me. just my .02 worth. Mark

 

one sure way to tell a resto-mod-hot rod ????


there are cookie crumbs on the seatcovers

later

John

 

Hey Roger, (clears voice) arent you forgetting someone?? We can recover seats to original condition. No matter what condition they are in currently!

I just had to pick on you, but I'd ditch that old seat and go with a newer one too. Of course I wouldn't even think of putting seatbelts in either, but that's just my .02 worth
Later

 

Terry - I didn't think you "darksiders" EVER talked "original", unless it was chicken!!

Seriously, you folks can make it original? The last time I talked to someone, about doing the seat on my '51 Shimmy, I was told that you couldn't even get the materials anymore, that no one makes them. I guess I assumed that anyone would just make new foam instead of the "matting" or whatever it was originally, and I would only use my original seat if it was exactly as from factory. Otherwise, I would use a newer, more comfortable, economical seat, like the Ranger. And even then, I would probably use the Ranger...

Two roll-overs and a head-on - seatbelts kept me in the vehicles on the rollo's, and saved my life on the head on...yeah, I'll put them in...

And, after seeing Terry and his fathers shop, work, and pictures of other's work, there is NO one that I would have do my seat/interior than them. They truly "do it all", and the work is impeccable, as well as innovative. Every bit as good as ANY car shows I have ever seen. I'm a long way away from that point, but I know I'll be shipping my seat down there for their treatment...hmmmmm....maybe another road trip!!!

R

 

You shouldn't have a problem with your original truck seat if you decide to keep it. There are a few places that sell the entire kit to redo it to stock condition.

 

Incorrect paint if he used Nitrocellulose on his '34.

Ford used Duco Enamel on Ford's from 1926 till the invention of Acrylic Enamel. No Ford (or Mercury) passenger car or truck used Nitrocellulose Lacquer.

Nitrocellulose was used on Lincolns from 1925 thru 1948, after that Duco till arcrylics.

GM used Nitrocellulose on everything car and truck from the late 1920's till acrylics were invented.

Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg, Packard, Pierce-Arrow, Franklin, Marmon, Stutz...etc..all the great cars from the Classic Era used Nitrocellulose.

btw, prior to 1924, there was no such thing as enamel paint. Duco = DuPont Co, invented enamel paint and the first car to use it was the 1924 Oldsmobile. Prior to Duco, cars weren't painted at all, they were varnished.

Since black varnish dried the quickest, now you know why Ford said: "You can have any color, so long as it's black."

 

I agree with you rc, that 34 would be concours. No matter what you do with your ride, it's all good, as long as you saved it from the crusher. I just laugh when someone says 100% original, and it's not. I had to send the guy that got me thinking a note that he might update his ad, as it was not in fact as it came off the factory line. He replied, and said the guy that sold it to him restored it, and researched it and said it was accurate, but if he would of known that the guy was not correct, he would of bartered the price. It was a 54 standard cab with deluxe cab trim, and 55 custom cab trim inside and out, and has carpet that is obviously aftermarket, and split loom tubing on wiring. No big deal, but to say it is exactly as it was when new, and trying to sell it as such is kind of a joke. He didn't get pissed, and thanked me for pointing out discrepencies.

 

Thanks for the info, i'm always ready to learn something new...but, that was a LONG time ago, and i was 18-19 at the time, and my memory left a long time ago. The nitrocellulose stuck in my mind, but we did a LOT of cars in that few years, and did use the NC quite a bit. I do know that whatever the correct paint was, for the '34, that's what was on it. It was done before I ever started working with him.

I almost bought a 41 or 42 Lincoln from him...did they make a Lincoln in '42? I also did buy a '37 coupe from him, but sold it before I ever finished it. $450, if I remember right - a lot of money for a teenager!

R

 

First Lincoln = 1921 / First Lincoln Zephyr = 1936 / First production Continental = 1940. The original Continental ragtop was custom made (from a Zephyr coupe and with many lbs. of lead) for Edsel Ford in 1939. He drove the car to his winter home in Florida, locals saw the car and loved it. Two more were custom made in 1939 for FL owners. Ford introduced the car as a regular production in 1940. While ragtops are the rarest, that wasn't true in 1940. There were only 50 Coupes made in 1940, I used to own one of them.


Everyone made cars in 1942, but only thru the middle of February. Because of WWII, all civilian production ended. Ford built Jeeps (along with ******-Overland), trucks, tanks, and 1000's of B-24 Bombers (at the Willow Run factory constructed by the War Production Board) for the war effort. The last production FoMoCo 1942 car was a Mercury Fordor Sedan. (Fordor = the way Ford spelt 4 Door, 2 doors were Tudor's).


btw: After WWII ended, Ford moved out of the Willow Run factory, which was then leased to Henry Kaiser. Kaiser used the factory to build Kaisers and Frazers (and lost his shirt in the process) till early 1953, when GM acquired the plant. Kaiser production moved to Toledo, Ohio. GM needed the Willow Run plant desperately, as their Hydra-Matic factory burned to the ground in early 1953. Jokesters back then said Henry Kaiser personally lit the match!