Hey folks,
pretty sure that my clutch is going south.
Symptoms are:
1) I was going about 65 the other evening and still accelerating, when the rpms went up without the speed increasing. Couple of times in the same 10 mile trip.
2) Clutch disengages when the pedal is depressed an inch or so.
3) when I got out of the truck, I could smell burned pads.
4) (and this could be normal?) when I'm going downhill in 3rd gear (only gear I notice it in) and let off the gas, the truck jumps and lurches like a fool.

On the other hand, when this happened the other evening, I was on the way to pick up almost 2 tons of stone. I loaded up and went back home without a problem, even went over some rough places to get where I needed them.
Do I need to be looking somewhere else?

I'm going to buy a kit to have on hand and am a little confused.
Here is the description of what I've found, can someone tell me which I need, or how to figure it out myself?

5 Speed Manual Transmission;280mm Diameter;1 Per Car;Wide Facing Version
Clutch Set;351W, 280mm Diameter;11" Diameter;10 Splines;5 Speed Manual Transmission;Wide Facing Version;1 Per Car

5 Speed Manual Transmission;280mm Diameter;1 Per Car
Clutch Set;351W, 280mm Diameter;11" Diameter;10 Splines;5 Speed Manual Transmission;1 Per Car.

Also, is this a one man job and semi dummy proof with a chilton or haynes book?

And, last question, can someone tell me what the flatrate time is for a garage to do it?

Thanks, Dave

 

If you're gonna pull the tranny for a clutch, no way would I just put in a disc. Go the whole nine yards with EVERYTHING inside that bell housing, and give some consideration to a new master cylinder as well. Slave, pilot, pressure plate, and disc. Total package cost for all of the above is around $300, and you may get a reman disc and plate to reduce the cost a little. Throw in another $15 for a rear main oil seal while you're at it, and do that too. It adds about 20 minutes to the job to replace the rear main seal, but can save you dropping that tranny out again.

If you know someone with a flywheel grinder, get your flywheel surfaced while you're doing the clean-up. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES LET SOMEONE USE A CUTTING TOOL ON THAT SURFACE!!!!! You'll be putting in discs a lot more often if anything other than a grinder is used on it.

As for a garage, I can tell you what a stealership charged me for a clutch job, including a master cylinder. $1400. Parts from their inventory ran me $560, the rest was labor. And, the disc/pressure plate WERE REMAN parts, not new as I expected from a dealer. 11 months later, they wanted another $800 to R&R the tranny for the rear main, AFTER I told them to put the rear main in on the first round, because the engine had 130K on it. "That would have been oversell" was their reply when I asked why they didn't put in a $15 part and tack on another 1/2 hour labor. Let me get this straight. Adding roughly $80 to the $1400 is oversell, but gouging me for another $800 less than 12,000 miles later isn't? So, I spent $180 for a good tranny jack, and $13 for a seal, and did it myself.

Get a couple six-packs and a buddy to come over to help you wiggle the tranny when it's needed, and spell ya on the wrenching off the vibration proof nuts. Start on Friday afternoon, and you should be driving the truck Saturday night. That's the way it worked out for me my first time around with pulling the M5. I got some photos and a write-up in my gallery if you want to look at the job for a rear main.

It isn't technically difficult, but is labor intense getting that tranny out and back in. But, do you want to give someone else $800 to do it for you? I backed mine up on ramps, then put jack-stands under the front, and that gave me plenty room to work under there and lower the tranny enough to get it out of the way. As far as the clutch is concerned, once you have the tranny off, the slave is a breeze to replace, as well as is the plate/disc. My only reason for taking mine to a dealer was that I was too busy at work (out of town) to spend the time on it, and had another car to drive in the meantime.

 

A clutch kit, slave cylinder, and rear main seal should cover everything I need? The rear main that I saw was round and one piece. Is that what I want, or is there a different kit for this job (I remember people talking about having to fish the top half through above the crank)? Will a haynes manual do me any good? Can the job be done by one person? How much weight am I dealing with?

Guess I should mention that it's a 1990 F250 4x4, 5.8l 5sp.

Thanks, Dave

 

The weight is sort of irrelevant if you have a decent transmission jack. If you don't have a transmission jack, then I would have to say a definite NO on it being a one person job, or even 2 persons. Getting it out may not be a problem (throw an old tire under it), but hefting it back up, getting it pointed in the right direction, and starting a bolt could be tricky. I have no real idea what the M5 weighs, but judging from the size, my guess would be close to 300 pounds. Look up an M5 to buy, and check the shipping weight. Subtract about 20 pounds for the crating, and you'll be close.

Yes, the 1 piece seal should be exactly what you need. The two piece seal is for the older 5.0's and 5.8's. There's a decent write-up in the Haynes manual for seal replacment, so yes, the Haynes manual should help. I find the Haynes pretty good for some very basic stuff, but it's worthless if you're trying to work on driveability issues that involve diagnostics with the ECM.

And yes, a clutch kit (pressure plate, disc, and pilot), a slave kit (assembled with TO bearing, and the rear main would be all you need inside the bell. However, as I said in my first post, I'd check that master cylinder too. If you've got debris in the hydraulic system from the slave going bad, you'll just pump that debris back into the brand new slave, and probably wind up under that truck again. Check the flywheel VERY closely for any scoring marks from the disc that has DEFINITELY slipped. First of all, when that disc slips with full pressure from the plate, you're going to temper the surface of the flywheel and pressure plate, putting hard spots in one surface, if not both. The crystal structure of the metal may actually change, leaving rough spots. Rough spots = acclerated wear on a clutch. If you see any grooving or discolored spots when you clean off the burnt fluid, I would strongly advise having the flywheel ground (NOT TURNED ON A LATHE).

Have a look at my gallery. I posted pics of my rear main seal replacement. It isn't technically difficult. It IS very labor intensive. Pulling the CM and gusset bolts will take a good bit of your time because the nuts are vibration proof nuts, and have to be wrenched all the way off. If you have some deep well metric impact sockets, you can shorten the task some, but be careful not to ruin the bolts or nuts. Make sure to spray them with PB Blaster, and maybe coat them with antisieze on the exposed threads before using an impact. Vibration proof nuts will get very hot and tend to gaul when turned too fast.

Make sure to mark the yoke of the driveshaft and the pinion flange before you take that off. If you don't get the driveshaft back on with the same orientation to the pinion, you may wind up with vibration in the driveline. Once the plate/flywheel is exposed, mark those too if you're putting the old pressure plate back on. If it isn't vibrating when you take the plate off, and you put it back on with the same orientation, it probably still won't vibrate. All these components should be well balanced, but on occasion, a minor imbalance on two pieces, when bolted together, turns out to be a very significant imbalance. You may not need the pressure plate, but if it's marginal and not holding, well, again, you're just going to be back under that truck a lot sooner than you want to be.

The disc will probably be saturated with fluid. The answer is NO, it cannot be cleaned up. If I pull a tranny for ANY reason, if that disc has more than a few thousand miles on it, a new one goes in. Cheap insurance to keep me from having to do a clutch job again.

Just bear in mind, you're getting free advice. Mine may not be exactly the same as someone else's and is based on my own experiences. You get what you pay for, and it's worth every penny of the price. Think about some things logically, and ask yourself a few questions about the job. Think about the difficulty of the job, and whether or not you're comfortable enough to do it again. Then, decide what you would do to avoid having to do it again, at least for a long time. Spend your money on correcting the problem, and add what you feel is necessary based on the age of the vehicle, how hard the job is to do, and what it will cost you if you have a different problem due to something you didn't do while you had the best opportunity. Case in point, the dealer charged me $1400 to do a complete clutch system, and didn't put in the rear main like I asked. They then wanted another $800 eleven months later to put in the rear main, which costs about $15. Do you see why I would recommend doing the rear main while you have the transmission out?

I kind of like working on my vehicles (I know, I'm a sick puppy) because it's good stress relief with 3 teenagers in the house. Just be nice to the parts and don't beat on things with hammers that shouldn't be beat on. There are some nice bosses on the bottom of the engine flange that will give you a good place to pry the bell off. Don't beat it off. Put some pressure on it, and wiggle the tranny from the tail section. It'll come off. Patience is important if you don't want to bend/break things.

 

Thanks! I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. When the time comes, I'll order everything (master cyl and flywheel included). There is a parts store over here that sells American car parts, but they are real proud of them. Not to mention that the dollar is real weak right now against the Euro. Local garages won't touch it unless I agree to no limit on the labor. The only one that will is a crook. If I miss anything, I'm down for a couple of weeks waiting on replacement parts.

Just a thought...... Is it possible that the problem is not the clutch itself, but something with the hydraulic system? The truck only has 60k miles on it (I know that doesn't mean much), but I don't know all of it's history. I remember someone putting automatic transmission fluid in the clutch master cylinder once and over a short time, the clutch got to the point of slipping because the seals in the cylinders swelled and wouldn't release pressure. Just wondering because when you think it should slip (heavy load and/or starting out on a hill), it doesn't slip, but will slip under normal conditions intermittantly.

Thanks again for your time,


Dave

 

It could be a broken finger on the PP. Slippage normally means one of two things. A.) Not enough pressure from the pressure plate. B.)Foreign slippery matter on the disk/flywheel/pressure plate). The inside of that bell should be dryer than a popcorn fart. If you see anything resembling oily residue in there, it's either coming through the shaft seal, from the slave, or from the engine. Intermittent slipping sort of indicates contaminants on the surfaces. Once it slips a bit, it will carbonize whatever oil is on the surface. Big problem here, is that carbon tends to be harder than the steel in the flywheel or pressure plate, and will generally make a mess out of either one.

Pull the inspection plug off the side of the bell, and look at the PP and slave through there. I don't think you'll be able to see the shaft seal, and KNOW you won't be able to see the rear main. See if there's oily stuff in there, and if you can, get a sample and see what it smells like (other than burnt). If it smells like brake fluid, it's the slave. If it smells like tranny fluid, shaft seal. I use Castrol GTX in my engine, so I get the unique smell of that stuff as well if I have a leak.

If everything is dry, then you probably have a mechanical failure of the pressure plate, or a bypassing master cylinder. If it's slipping, that would indicate trash in the hydraulics that isn't letting all the pressure off the slave. The return to the reservoir does have an orifice to help prevent chatter and make the clutch operation smoother. Put a little garbage in that, and you're gonna get some hinky behavior from the slave.

I haven't checked your profile to see where "over here" is, but you mention the Euro, so I think it's safe to assume somewhere in Europe, but not England/GB. That's a big truck on small roads over there.

 

I'm in Germany. I'll do what you said with the inspection. I have noticed some chirping while I drive across the fields lately. I'll hear it for a stretch, but when I stop and take care of the horses at one place, I usually don't hear it when I take off again. I'll look into it. We have a super do it yourself garage for the Soldiers and Civilian employees. Just not real easy to get into right now.

Thanks, Dave

 

Gotcha.

My mother's from Germany, Bavaria to be a little more specific, down near Frankfurt. My wife's dad grew up in East Berlin, before the wall came down. Would love to go one day.

Got a whole house full of tall blonde blue-eyed kids, LOL.

 

I'm in Bavaria myself (about 90 miles east of Frankfurt) .Frankfurt itself is in Hessen, so if she's from Bavaria but near Frankfurt, she must be from real close to where I am. I am just outside of Schweinfurt (fell off the train here about 18 years ago). Where is she from? I like going to the old East sometimes. Different mentality (kinda like the Frederic's of the world, if you don't have it, make it) and beautiful country.

Like me to send you anything?

 

My mother grew up in Friedberg. My g/m had an apartment in the castle at Friedberg when my mother was a kid. She still remembers the HUGE icicles breaking off and falling in the spring.

I like the concept of "if you don't have it, make it", but unfortunately don't have much time for doing many of the things I'd love to try. Got quite a few projects in mind revolving around the truck and the 'Bird, but too busy at work to start them. The 'Bird is the better half's daily driver, so can't take it down. I want to put together a 5.0 and AOD package to drop in there. I also want to fab up a custom exhaust for my F-150 to let it breath a little easier too.

I gotta ask, have you had the F-150 on the autobahn yet? If so, did it do well at sustained high speed? These things have the aerodynamics of a brick, so I'm sure fuel economy was pitiful at autobahn speeds. But that's gotta be a rush to open one up and let 'er rip.

Can't think of anything I need, unless you can lay your hands on air-cooled VW parts relatively cheap. My guess is they'd cost more to ship than it would for me to just buy them here. I got my little Baja turning out about 100 HP. Not bad considering it started life out with 48 HP. I've owned the VW since 1979. I'd say it's got sentimental value, but reality says it's possessed. (or would that be possessive?). Twice I've tried to sell it, and twice had to give the money back because it wouldn't start. I won't sell something that isn't working as advertised. Just the integrity thing.

Keep me posted on the clutch replacement. When I did my rear main, the only part of the clutch I didn't have to bother with was the slave (it was brand new). The dealer let some jack-leg cut it with a lathe, so I don't hold much faith in this clutch lasting very long. Oh yeah, make sure whatever clutch kit you get comes with the appropriate pilot tool to align the disc. Very important to get that disc centered so you don't destroy the pilot bearing while re-installing the tranny. Most kits come with the tool.

If you don't have the tool to release the hydraulic line from the slave, it's easy enough to make one. I took a piece of flat stainless steel about .0625 thick and ground a notch in one end using a dremel tool. Some kits come with the tool, some don't. If I remember correctly a .675 notch is perfect to depress the collet on the line. The line has a check valve in it and won't let the master dump all the fluid out. If the slave is OK when you take the tranny down, it too has a check valve in it which will save you some time bleeding it. If you're replacing it, make sure to bleed it completely, or you'll have a very spongy clutch.

 

Email me a list of parts & I'll give you an idea so you can figure what the difference is. The truck is an F250. Had it up to 100mph once but it wasn't too fun. When I take it out I usually stay between 60 and 80. There is a chime that starts at about 70 but I'm tone deaf and able to tune it out easy (works good on the wife too). I get a little better mileage on the autobahn than I do with normal use of the truck. Really sucks with the front hubs locked though. I got it real cheap because the guy said it only got about 5mpg. When I picked it up, I saw that the hubs were locked. He never even new that they turned. I get about 8mpg (hubs locked for quick 4x4) doing what I use it for and 13-16 (hubs unlocked) on the autobahn.

 

i just recently replaced the clutch in my truck. but i ran a little short on money and i replaced everything but the pressure plate. actually, i replaced the slave cylinder before the clutch went out 2 days later. but i only could afford the throwout bearing and clutch . mines a 89 f150 4x2 4spd btw. i took the tranny out by myself, which took about 4 hours, but i got my cousin to come over with my uncles tranny jack and we had it back together in about an hour and a half. it was alot easier then i thought.

 

i just recently replaced the clutch in my truck. but i ran a little short on money and i replaced everything but the pressure plate. actually, i replaced the slave cylinder before the clutch went out 2 days later. but i only could afford the throwout bearing and clutch . mines a 89 f150 4x2 4spd btw. i took the tranny out by myself, which took about 4 hours, but i got my cousin to come over with my uncles tranny jack and we had it back together in about an hour and a half. it was alot easier then i thought.

 

There's nothing wrong with cutting a flywheel on a lathe - I've done it many times on many different vehicles and the new clutches have lasted at least as long as the original.

Use a rounded cutter rather than a pointy one to avoid barely visible scoring and it works fine. Engage the lathe's saddle mechanism so that the cutter moves at the slowest possible speed and go have a beer while you wait.

 

I'm talking myself into doing this job, got a price quote for everything (including a book to help me through) and am ready to order. Put 2200kg of sand in the truck today (max allowable is 1500) and brought it home and to the place I needed it with no problem. No slip, no smell afterwards, nothing. Sometimes it'll slip empty and then go fine until I use the clutch a few times. Is it possible that one of the cylinders is not releasing right? I only have to depress the pedal about an inch to disengage. Any ideas?

Thanks, Dave