I like the logic in this post here.

ff,

I'm not going to comment on the internet toughguy comment. For once there is a p**sing contest I'm not involved in.

 

lol, ya surprising for ya, just sit back and watch the show

 

You opened the can of worms with the fatback comment, I just tried to refute it. Who said anything about being tough?

 

69 is a fat back number, no im not curious how big ya are nor how fast you run, your lips were a little bit loose so i threw the internet toughguy comment in.......now you will take that and you will like it

 

Got a kick out of the scion comments-for background I was an owner operator for years, semi's. 40,000 lbs. on up, you don't haul with a pick up or a ton and a half. Same throughout the load range, you buy depending on what you want to do with the vehicle. Have a '90 4.9 that I love, but I don't love it for fuel economy at todays prices either.
But just one example of why Toyota is within reach of being the number one seller in America. Just one example.
I'm retired, deliver for a florist. They have always used Ford vans. A Windstar was the newest. The gas prices in the last couple of years have created a problem with the miles you accumulate during deliveries.
The Windstar at that time (and today), cost over $60.00 for a tankful that would last three days or less. In November '05 the Boss bought a Scion XB, a tankful would cost $30.00 or less and do the same work. And it does in 95% of the cases the same work. 28 to 32 MPG during stop and go.
Can you name a competetive Ford or GM, or Chrysler product for this purpose?
The Scion has zero problems other than normal maintenance, want to know the repairs with the Windstar, or the Aerostar for comparison?
Delivering flowers you carry no weight, but the engines idle endlessly, the vehicles have endless drivers. They are not your normal family vehicles, they lead a hard life. You hustle on deliveries.
Toyota designed the Scion's for the youth market, I would assume the XB pickup would be designed for the same market. Not to compete with the heavy duty whatever's.
So these are quirky vehicles, but they are well sorted out. The small engines and trannies complement each other to deliver a very adequate performance for their small horsepower.

 

Chrysler - PT Cruiser, Dodge Caliber, Jeep Compass, the upcoming Dodge Nitro Panel

GM - HHR Panel (click link), Pontiac Vibe

Ford - Focus wagon

You asked.

 

Ford Focus wagon, look inside a 2005 XB and a Focus wagon, you get your answer. The XB is a two box configuration, with space to match. Look inside a Focus, see the difference in headroom? Floral arrangements are tall in a lot of cases.
A PT cruiser, I had one for a rental recently. Their four banger sounds like it came out of an early generation John Deere. It is a crude engine. Look at their reliability also.
Ditto for the Dodges and Jeeps.
I'm retired. So I didn't get off the turnip truck yesterday. I watched the early imports come into America. I kept giving the domestics time to get their act together as the years progressed. It didn't happen, all we got was more PR and excuses...so in 2000 I gave up on their autos, I bought a Maxima.
During the late 80's and 90's while my daughter was driving her Toyota Corolla with normal maintenance, I was battling my check engine lights and factory recalls from Ford autos. With matching resale value.
My daughter drove that Toyota nearly 200,000 miles in almost 15 years.
Detroit abdicated the auto market years ago for the high profit SUV's and pickup's. Guess near bankruptcy has caused them to take another look at their priorities.
Detroit's newest autos now look better - but by now millions of American's won't even consider a Detroit product.
I do not in any way blame the auto workers themselves. The same American's are now assembling the Toyota's and...you name the brand. Just the management has changed.
They ignored reality, now it's bitten them.

 

"The Scion has zero problems other than normal maintenance, want to know the repairs with the Windstar, or the Aerostar for comparison?"

Personally owned 2 Aerostars with 350,000 miles combined-ZERO problems.

BTW, an Escape?

 

Although you have some years on me agewise, I do remember that in the late 70's when the "imports" came to North America. When you compared the Datsuns, Toyotas, and others to what the Big 3 ( and they were at that time ) the imports were smaller and to me, cheaply made. Reliable? Can't comment on that, but I do know growing up on the farm we had numerous old Chevy and Fords go well over 300,000 hard miles and thru some of the harsh winters Canada has to offer. We would be hard pressed to try and get out of the yard in winter with one of those Datsun's or Toyota's.

Also for the reliablity of domestics somewhat falling behind the imports, also resale can be lumped into this. Just look how many years it took Toyota to become the #1 selling manufacturer on the planet. The big 3 were mass producing millions of vehicles just as the imports hit the shore. And unfortunatley when producing many, many, vehicles or any product for that matter problems can and do arise in quality control. Toyota might soon find out now that they are moving alot of vehicles. Low resale #'s can possibley be attributed to the mass quanitity of the same product out there.

I will state that there is NOT and manufacturer on this planet that is perfect and that they all have problems. I don't think that is was SUV's and trucks that hurt the domestics, it was other investments when the getting was good at the time that is now hurting them. Jaguar for Ford is a perfect example, Chrysler recently being sold away from Dodge is another. Poor management and union gouging also doesn't help either. If it was SUV's and pickups that forced the domestics in bankruptcy as you state, why would both Toyota and Nissan jump into that market?

I have alot more to say but I will cut it short. I guess we can agree that we both have very different experiences and opinions on this and I do respect your view on this.

 

I didn't really mean the SUV's and pickups were the only or main problem, just that Detroit put a majority of their resources into those products - while totally neglecting the cars. And guess who gladly filled the void?
Look at the Taurus and Sable, they rocked the industry when they came out. And then were allowed to wither on the vine. Eventually becoming rental vehicles primarily.
I am in no way pleased, sad really, that with all of the exports of American industry and manufacturing to foreign lands, one of the largest remaining is in financial trouble. It's horrible for the workers, the towns involved. The support industry.
But it's also about primarily Detroits big brass losing the trust of millions of American car buyers. The statistics support that statement. You can find articles about the steps Ford and GM are taking to get people to test drive their products. People who no longer even consider looking at domestic products when in the market for cars.
They lost it by putting out many times a bunch of assembled parts, and letting the customer sort it out. Cheap switchgear, etc. Then their arrogance with customer service, GM was the worst, but Ford has gained a bunch of ground sadly in that area.
So our decision was not made lightly to buy import. It hurt to do so.
Am I sorry - no. I'm still driving the same 2000 Maxima, still impressed with it. And it has retained a good resale value when I decide to sell.

.

 

All good points that you state. And my thinking now that Toyota is atop of the heap evenually they might run into to same situation. " Putting out a bunch of assembled parts, and letting the customer sort it out." Not that I'm sticking up for the domestics, like you stated your decision was not made lightly to buy import but when it comes to YOUR ( and my ) hard earnerd money, you ( and myself ) want to get the best bang for your buck.

I, myself, I'm very happy with both my Fords but not my Dodge. ( Stratus - but that car came with the wife ) But when the time comes to buy again, I will look for what fits me, and my family the best. ( financially and personally ) Whether it be domestic or import.

Anyways glad to hear you are having good luck with the Maxima, do you have the 265 hp V6? Reason being I heard they are quite hard on fuel for a V6.

 

The 2000 is a 3.0, 222 horse - the newest are the 3.5, 265 horse. I think that same engine in the Z is somewhere around 300. They're great engines.
Mileage, I never figure in-city driving. Our longest road trip was over 3000 miles. We got a high of 28 and a low of 26. In town I'd guess in the teens.

And you're right that as Toyota grows they'll run into more problems. They've had a couple already. But up until recently, and I've followed the auto industry for years, fascinated by it. I've gotten a daily google for years among other sources about the domestic auto industry. Read and subscribe to car magazines. Follow the reliability ratings and recalls.

And I maintain my equipment. I was an owner operator for about 20 years. When your living is dependant on your vehicles, you learn to care for it. That and you avoid some of the problems when you're out in Timbuktu.

I have seen a vast difference in the mindset between Toyotas and Hondas management, and the domestics. Toyota and Honda take very seriously the quality issue, Toyota knows that reputation is the reason where they're at today.

The domestics, up until recently, like I said before, in a lot of cases assemble parts and let the customer sort them out. Then followed up by indifferent or arrogant service departments - with Ford and GM calling the shots. Business as usual.

Today they seem to have received the message. Trouble is Ford now doesn't have the resources to address many of the problems. The domestics across the board are lacking in the smaller cars and engines to compete.

As I said, that PT I drove, that is a crude engine. Most domestic 4 bangers are. But the question to me is - why in that 40 or 50 year gap, did the domestics fail or ignore these issues until faced with financial ruin?

The 2005 scion xb I drive, thats 106 horses, auto. 106 horses - today. And housed inside a square box. But it is a competent package for it's intended usage. That little engine has never embarrased me yet. It now has around 45,000 miles on it.

The thing is - it saddens me that in the years since the Toy's and Honda's hit the American shores, and as time progressed from the first offerings, built a reputation for quality - how come all the brainpower in Detroit couldn't read the handwriting on the wall and seriously address these issues?

It finally comes down to your personal financial choice, and you're tired of the aggravation of trying to get issues solved. That's what people do. Millions have. And it's hard as people in any business can tell you, to regain a former thoroughly ticked off consumer.

And some of the problems are beyond Detroit's ability to solve, such as healthcare. To address those and other issues, the American people will have to come out of their electronically induced slumber, and realize we need a two party system that solves some of our problems for a change. They might have to get involved. Thats what the founders intended.

 

A true-er statement has never been uttered. But maybe that is exactly what the domestics should do. New advertising admitting their past mistakes. "Hey, c'mon back! We know what the problem is (finally) and we're working hard to earn your trust- again."

 

I agree, an honest admittance of the neglect to address consumers concerns - which boiled down to financial losses at trade in time, money spent for unneeded repairs way ahead of normal life expectancy for those items, might help. For the time spent chasing quality control problems, sitting in waiting rooms at the dealers. Always a fun filled way to spend your days. And in many many cases they were problems Detroit failed to address knowing full well they existed.

I hear my so and so ran so long, yes but - a larger majority of those same owners had problem after problem. Thats not quality control - thats a crap shoot. I got tired of depending on a crap shoot for my autos.

My boss at the florist still runs an Aerostar with something like 240,000 miles. Thats an unbelievable amount of idling hours, abuse with multiple drivers, etc. The motor and tranny are original. It's used now mainly for holiday backup.

But that was the primary delivery vehicle when I began several years ago. It had somewhere around 125,000 at that time. So the motor and tranny are original. The boss has a kind of sentimental attachment to it, because she has spent a kings fortune keeping the rest of the vehicle running. It long ago ceased being economically viable. It has had electrical problems since day one. You just overlooked the idiot lights when you drove it, they were never to be relied on.

I grew up a died in the wool Chevy fan - let me tell you some time about my 3 different Chevys from that era sometime. Later after having tired of the arrogance in their service departments went to Ford. Remember when "Quality is job one" was the catch phrase? I missed the models that must have pertained to.

But I still love my Ford pick em up. And I will be one of the first to cheer when and if the domestics regain a reputation for a well sorted out, quality products - across the board, not hit or miss - one that appears to have been assembled and designed by people who aren't just considering the cheapest components possible. But will consider the long term damage to their reputation otherwise.

 

Imagine a Fusion.
A Fusion with two doors, no back seat, no trunk.
Think of a Fusion from the B-pillar forward as just a Fusion.

Then imagine the backseat and trunk area as a pickup bed.

Think Ranchero...


If Ford built it, and sold it for under 20K.

Would you buy it?

Would you buy this Ranchero or the Toyota Scion xP for the same 20K?


Just a thought.