https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6...vs-v-10-a.html

 

Wow...that is an oldie.

 

yea, but it has been revived and most of the 2nd page is new.

 

You talking about the 460 or the thread??

I'm glad Ford dumped the old turd. My dad's neighbor just picked up an early 90s F250/460 to use as a farm beater and his Superduty with 5.4L outpulls it. I have a feeling it's going to end up as a parts truck in his junk lot.

 

cool a worn out early 90's 460 and a basically new 5.4 heck of a comparison. good luck convincing guys in this forum of the 460's superiority. it was a sad day in 97 when the worst decision ever was made to retire one of the best motors ever. o well at least theres plenty left over to build the right way and spank anything in its path.lets hear it

 

I agree that the 460 can be built to produce huge power numbers.....but in stock form it was a wheezer; which was kinda ironic given the canted valve layout. (I think the '99 V10 was also quite lethargic)

Who knows what may have happened if Ford stuck with it.

 

The EPA knocking on thier door prehaps???

 

No.... REALLY????!?!?!?!?

 

Ummmm...........I have some reservations about that.

I know Ford thought they were way ahead of the game concerning EPA regs by going with the small bore. (I still have some doubts concerning the advantages of OHC architecture if your staying with a 2 valve wedge head.)

But GM and even DCX has shown that bores over 4" are still quite viable.


Look at the 500HP N/A 427" LS7 small block.......and being in a passenger car, the EPA regs are more stringent.

What's funny is the LS heads that are responsible for the balance of clean performance out of big bores are not that much different than a Windsor layout with the symetrical ports and in-line valves.

 

It only made sense to discontinue the 460 due to the fact it was designed around carburetion and later emmisions and fuel injection was added.

The V10 was designed for fuel injection, computer controls and better emmisions while creating more power than a 460. (Stock VS Stock)

The 460 is a fine engine and can be made to make as much and more than the V10 but at the cost of poor fuel economy.

I think the reason for a smaller bore is because it is easier to get a more complete burn across the entire cylinder with a small bore than it is with a large bore, not to mention the smaller bore takes less fuel per fire.

 

Little or nothing to do with it........it would be much easier to redo the heads/induction to a modern port design than to create a whole new motor. But guess what? the V10 really wasn't an all new motor; it shared a lot of the parts design with the then 7 year old Modular family.


For the life of me, I cannot think of what an EFI motor would have that would be specific to it and it alone.....Yes, the V10 is more efficient, but the 460 may have been able to evolve. Ford was trying to consolidate motor designs IMHO.


Again, bring it up to modern standards with fresh heads/intake and a lot of that is solved........but then you still have another engine family.

I don't know how far Ford thinks ahead, but if they had been planning a multivalve v10 from the get go, then it was easier to make that happen with the Mod motor.



Yup, smaller bore=better control of flame travel/more complete burn/less emissions. (like already mentioned in post #9)
BUT read up on the EPA compliant GM and DCX motors that have 4" or larger bores.....what's interesting is that the 5.7 LS1 did have a 3.9" bore, it has slowly snuck up past 4" again. (not quite 460 size, but how about stroking the 460 with a more managable smaller diameter piston, throw on some new, modern heads and electronics??.....Because you'd lose compatability with ALL your other car and truck lines)

Your fuel comment depends on total displacement AND power level.....


The bottom line is Ford had a choice to revamp basically 2 complete engine families (the 385 series and the 302/351 Windsor) or roll all R&D across one motor family.

 

The small-bore/long stroke is the reason the 415 cube V10 can out-torque a 460. At least, stock...

And if you start working on a 460 for any sort of power, you don't gain much in the low-end. AND the fact that 10 cylinders vs. 8, even for the same size motor WILL yield more torque. Less dead-time between power strokes means more usable power.

The fact that with OHC, you have the fuel injector sitting right over the intake port, almost spraying directly into the cylinder, you can't achieve with pushrods. Or at least, it's easier.

Again, 415 cubes vs 460, 10 cyl vs. 8, OHC vs. pushrod, there are so many advantages, it's not funny.

 

The problem with this "theory" is that "down low" the 460 still made more torque!! I understand PEAK torque favored the V10..The fact is the 460 falls on it's face much sooner than the V10.

Better/more modern heads anyone????


Your using all the old numbers.....tweak the 460 with a slightly longer stroke, reduce bore size, update the induction and viola'.....but that would be too much work with the Mod motors already ramped up.




Ummmm.......I'm looking at a 302 GT-40 intaker lower as I type. The injector boss goes right into the intake. Looks about the same area where it sits in a Mod motor.


While the V10 is the premier "Big-Block".....consider us lucky that GM, for whatever reason, isn't enlarging the LS series past the 6.2 liter. If they do, the only thing that would be funny is our TOTAL humilation.

That modern pushrod series from GM has humbled all our offerings EXCEPT when Ford utilizes OHC for where it really shines......multi-cam 4 valve heads.

And even then, it was close.

 

True.

Even though the GM 8.1 big block doesnt share parts compatibility with the LS series engines, it is still based on the same architecture, at least from what I understand.

According to banks stock chassis dyno information.

2004 GM 8.1
222HP@4000rpm
314tq@3400rpm

Ford 99 V10(I know, the newer V10 has alot more guts, but this is what we have to work with)
197HP@4200rpm
270.7tq@2600rpm

1995 7.5/E4OD
178@3200 rwhp
334@1800 rwtq

 

Negative on the 8.1............it is a stroked 454...very old school.

The '99 V10 was an albatross and really gave the V10 a bad rep for a few years.....kinda of a shame since the V10 had already been out for 2 model years in the vans.

The worst slap in the face was when one of the mags compared it to the 6.0 version of an LS.......the GM ate it up.


Later, TRUCK TREND did a 310 horse V10 comparo to the 8.1 and Dodge V10 and the Ford did VERY well. The Ford was actually faster in a lot of sprints when empty even though it got out torqued by the 8.1 when loaded. (it handled the Dodge V10 pretty much overall!!)