>Was that truck driver in an American rig or was it one of
>those Nafta-wrecks from Mexico that Clinton let in?

It was an American rig. It sounds like the guy has had some problems in the past. Spent some time in prison for assault and was wanted in south Texas for failing to keep his log current. The case is going to a grand jury on a vehicular manslaughter charge.

 

OK first thing I did was read all the previous posts so I don't repeat too much. I strongly agree with the idea that there is a "flow of traffic" that depends on time of day, weather, road conditions, etc. People either want to drive within this flow, or they don't.

When the flow is across 3 lanes, say, and they are going 75, 65, 55 mph, and someone wants to go 65 in the fast lane, then they are impeding traffic. What's worst is when they are on the phone, talking, or doing about anything that detracts from their driving. This includes trying to "prove" anything to some other driver. I can't imagine anyone deliberately driving alongside a semi, phone in hand, 5 kids in the car, to "teach" anyone anything. Totally insane. There are countless scenarios with this as a start where the teacher and his kids die, and in most of them he is as culpable as anyone else.

Even without the semi, I've seen this countless times. The guy riding in the wrong lane feels secure, because he has a long stretch of clear road ahead of him. (Anyone who manages to squeeze by on the right quickly accelerates away. Squeezing by on the right is not often a valid option in my truck, so I'm more likely to sit behind this guy and look for ways to "remind" him to move over.) The whole effect is sort of like a rock in a stream, generating turbulence to the right and behind this driver, of which he is completely unaware.

On the other hand there's the guy who isn't happy even with the 75 in the fast lane, and insists on darting in and out of traffic. His goal seems less to be getting where he's going efficiently (often the excuse for this behavior), but simply to pass other vehicles. Most often they get caught behind someone going much slower than they are, can't change lanes fast enough, and lock them up a bit, swearing I'm sure at people "less competent" than them. I'm usually still in the fast lane at this point, cruising by with a long line of others.

One of the first things I learned in Driver's Ed, along with courtesy and defensive driving, is avoiding sudden or erratic maneuvers. This is particularly true in a truck, moreso a loaded truck. "Lane commanders" and "Nascar racers" BOTH require sudden maneuvers and quick responses from others around them. They both are a danger on the road because of this.

Cure these two behaviors, and I for one will never tailgate (or even flash my highs) again. There would be no need.

For the curious I drive:

Dodge Ram
56 Ford F100
Jeep Grand Cherokee

 

"Other people's speed isn't what jeopardizes people who drive on public roads - look at the statistics: getting near your own vehicle is what jeopardized you. Most wrecks occur within a mile of your own home - how many people live within a (driving not flying) mile of a 65mph zone? Think about it carefully, and you'll realize that it's a VERY small percentage of the population."

But most fatal accidents happen on the highway. I live with in a mile of a major highway, as do many people here in So Cal (I don't know about where you live.) Speeding does jeapordize everyone.



"Everyone who drives on public roads put THEIR OWN safety on the line, whether they EVER encounter a speeder or not."

This is true, but driving has become a necessity. Why should I have to endure other drivers who speed. They clearly make the situation less safe. And I have to endure them every time I drive.



"No, there are a LOT of other laws governing the operation of motor vehicles besides just obeying the speed limit. Some of them are: impeding the flow of traffic; traffic obstruction; reckless operation; DUI; MVI; safety equipment; improper lane usage..."

Correct, and you are required to obey ALL of the laws, not just the ones you deem pertinent. If I am driving along at 63 in a 65 and you force me to move over as you go by at 85 who do you think would get a citation if an officer witnessed the entire event?



"So does that mean that states with 75mph speed limits are unsafe? What about states with no daytime speed limit? Then why are there so fewer collisions in Germany on the Autobahn? Making morons drive slowly doesn't make them safe or smart. It just keeps them alive long enough to reproduce."

Perhaps those state highways are newer and designed for higher speeds. I have never driven the Autobahn, but I imagine it to be far less crowded than my local highway. And I have heard of fatal accidents on the Autobahn, it is not like they never have any accidents over there. I would much rather be on the rod with a bunch of morns going 65 rather than 85. Maybe what we need is more driver education. I attend at least one defensive driving school per year through my work.



"When you doing 85 in a 65 and some moron cuts you off at 45 or there is a stalled car in your lane and you suddenly realize that you're out of time, out of options and out of talent. Now you're in a 6000# out of control missile

But the same is true if you were doing 65 in a 65 zone, or even 55. If you're paying so little attention that you get yourself into that situation, you shouldn't even be behind the wheel - it doesn't make any difference if you're doing the speed limit or under."

The fact of the matter is that you have far less time to react at 85 than you do at 65. And most speeders tailgate, further reducing the available time to react. Also, a vehicle loses control much quicker at 85. We are talking about 6000# trucks here. I would much rather get hit by a Honda civic going 85 than a Superduty going 85.

 

I see three common themes here.


Highway Driving.

1)"The Fast Lane" <>According to the Rules & Laws of the road
"There is No Such thing".

This is just personal view by some people.

A Maximum Speed Zone Sign Governs All of the lanes on a given road.
There aren't any references to a *Fast Lane* in any Driver's ED manuals.
There is in fact a Regular driving (travel)lane & a Passing lane.
The left lane is also used for turning left and yes it is legal to drive a lot less then the posted speed to make a turn.
To me it doesn't matter if the vehicle behind me is a small car or a semi,I get over to the right lane,because that's where a person is Supposed to be driving. I'm only in the left lane to pass,and if I don't speed to get past some one,I'm really NOT doing anything wrong.
Like I said before,This person wanting to do 20-30 mph over can wait until I get Back Over to the regular driving lane.
I would only be holding them up because,they want to break the law not because they think I'm impeding traffic!

Some people mention that *Other's* should get out of their way (even if these other people are driving according to the law)only because they want to go even faster.
IMO,These people are in fact saying that the Laws of the road don't apply to them thus,exceeding the speed limit.

They would rather speed and get mad at the law abider's than petition the government to change the speed limits by legislation.

And yes I agree,That people should not be driving less than the posted speed limit in the PASSING Lane but,they can drive any speed they want in the regular driving though.
As a person operating a motor vehicle these are things that you have to accept, as there could be many reasons why this vehicle is being driven slower.
Furthermore, The FLOW of traffic can be any speed up until the maximum speed limit is reached.
At that point this SHOULD be the flow of traffic.
Any speed faster than the posted speed limit is unlawful and poses more of a risk.
The flow of traffic shouldn't be governed by the speeders.

When it comes to posted speed limits,these are set for YEAR-ROUND conditions,not just when it's dry and sunny.
The Highway's dept. can't keep replacing the signs depending on the weather at the time.

Remember > WE ALL have to share the road > and it is up to ALL of us to maintain some kind of order when we are in our rolling Missles.


2) Impeding Traffic.

Just what is impeding traffic?
Doing 63 in 65 zone
Doing 60 in a 65 zone
Doing 50 in a 65 zone
Doing 30 in 65 zone.

Remember everyone is SUPPOSEDto be in the driving lane until they need to pass.

The farmer pulling his swather or driving his combine down the road at 30 mph in a 50 is NOT impeding traffic if there is another travel lane. He is simply operating his unit and he has thatright as he too pays for the roads. All the other driver's should be aware and operate their vehicle accordingly.


Just what is the Definition of Impeding Traffic.

To me, it is where a person is straddling two lanes and driving
at any speed on the highway.
A person diving 15-20 mph less than the posted speed limit is NOT impeding traffic.

Regarding impeding traffic, go to google & type
"Definition of Impeding traffic*.
See the example of Mr. Selz with his bicycle.


3)Accidents close to home.

It has been researched by the Canadian Safety council that most accident's happen within 6 miles from home, not 1 mile.


4)Germany vs North America.

There is a VAST difference between the driver's of Germany and those of North America.

In Germany, you have to know the in's & out's of a vehicle (mechanical & its limitations).

In Germany,it takes about 6 month's of intense driver training to get a license plus,it costs about $360 USD.

In North America, it is very easy by world standards to get a driver's license.

It is often referred to as "A JOKE".

And it shows.
Look at how people drive on our roads.


Dennis

F.T.E. Assistant Administrator
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I learned drivers ed in California in the 70s. What can I say.

We were taught that it was illegal to impede traffic in drivers training. You WOULD get a ticket if you impeded traffic. Impeding traffic meant that you had a line of cars, judgement call, but 5 or 6 cars all backed up behind you was often cited. If you did not move to the right, the slow lane, at your earliest convenience you were in violation. You had to keep moving to the next right lane if you still impeded traffic. If you finally wound up in the rightmost lane and still impeded traffic you could be ticketd. I recall this strongly because we had this same discussion with the drivers ed teacher back then. I know personally of several people who were ticketed for this offense. We were also taught that it was courteous driving not to impede traffic.

I recall similar discussions during a traffic school session in the early 80s. Same response from the Chippie giving the class. "Move over or I will ticket you, not the guys trying to get around you". I was in class for one of those stupid red light sensors that couldn't pickup my bike while I waited several cycles. Great class BTW.

So yes you could be ticketed for impeding traffic, at least in the 70s and 80s in California. Back then most people knew not to hog the left lane. Don't know about now. Moved away due to too much traffic. Could be different now, but I sure wish more states would ticket left lane bandits. I also don't mind ticketing blatant speeders or unsafe driving of any sort. I still vote for go with the flow of traffic.

Just recollections, from a poor kid who got his first drivers ed lesson behind the wheel at LAX on Christmas eve.

Jim Henderson

 

>I see three common themes here.
>
>
>Highway Dr
>it) has absolutely nuthin on Virginia, at least in the
>Tidewater area. These people invented GRIDLOCK, and after
>drivers ed in high school, I think most people graduate to
>TAILGATE 101 in the local community colleges.
>
>If anything whatsoever is going on in the opposite lanes,
>everyone slows down to look! It doesn't matter what it is,
>it could be somebody changing a tire. But the chain reaction
>results in twenty mile an hour speeds on interstate highways
>and bridge tunnels!
>
>Anyone from Hampton and Norfolk here? Say it ain't so!!!
>
>And god forbid a trooper pulls someone over on a divided
>road! For ten miles after, everyone slows down to EXACTLY 5
>under the limit. As if the cop is going to drop his book and
>say "THERE GOES ANOTHER'N!!! L'ES GIT 'IM!!!" and cross
>through the concrete deviders "in HOT persuit...".
>
>Yep, I can handle Southern Cal any day...


*** I LIVE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AND THAT IS SO TRUE!****
>And yes I agree,That people should not be driving less than
>the posted speed limit in the PASSING Lane but,they
>can drive any speed they want in the regular driving though.
>As a person operating a motor vehicle these are things that
>you have to accept, as there could be many reasons why this
>vehicle is being driven slower.
>Furthermore, The FLOW of traffic can be any speed up until
>the maximum speed limit is reached.
>At that point this SHOULD be the flow of traffic.
>Any speed faster than the posted speed limit is unlawful and
>poses more of a risk.
>The flow of traffic shouldn't be governed by the speeders.
>
>

>
>2) Impeding Traffic.
>
>Just what is impeding traffic?
>Doing 63 in 65 zone
>Doing 60 in a 65 zone
>Doing 50 in a 65 zone
>Doing 30 in 65 zone.
>
*** THE FIRST TIME I TOOK MY BEHIND THE WHEEL DRIVING TEST I FAILED BECAUSE AT ONE POINT IN THE TEST I WAS DOING 32MPH AND THE SPEED LIMIT WAS 35. I WAS DOING 32 BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO GET OVER BUT THAT DIDN'T MATTER, I FAILED FOR DRIVING 32 MILES PER HOUR!

 

in drivers ed i was also taught that it was a no no to go under the speed limit when changing lanes

 

"Why should I have to endure other drivers who speed."

Why should I have to endure other drivers who impede the flow?
Why should I have to endure other drivers who fail to signal?
Why should I have to endure other drivers who have faulty safety equipment?
Why should I have to endure other drivers who are intoxicated?
Why should I have to endure other drivers who fall asleep?
Why should I have to endure other drivers who drive recklessly?
Why should I have to endure Canadians? (JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!)

I've never seen or heard of statistics that show speeding to be the most common cause of collisions, fatal or not. In the US, the statistic on most collisions is 1 mile from home. (Maybe due to higher population density.)


"who do you think would get a citation if an officer witnessed the entire event?"

Neither of us. Most of the cops I know (and to whom I've spoken in depth about whom they ticket & why) couldn't care less about mild speeding, severe tailgating, or impeding the flow.


"Perhaps those state highways are newer and designed for higher speeds."

Highway design hasn't changed significantly in 50 years (since portland cement was developed). Property values have steadily increased, so new highways AREN'T built with wider curves than older ones, and they're all built flat & smooth enough for low-profile tires or 18-wheelers doing 90.


"I imagine it to be far less crowded than my local highway"

Think again. The Autobahn system sees higher traffic loads than the US interstate system on average per mile. And there are still fewer wrecks, because of what Dennis pointed out:

"There is a VAST difference between the driver's of Germany and those of North America. In Germany, you have to know the in's & out's of a vehicle (mechanical & its limitations). In Germany,it takes about 6 month's of intense driver training to get a license plus,it costs about $360 USD. In North America, it is very easy by world standards to get a driver's license."


"most speeders tailgate"

I doubt that it's a significantly higher percentage than that of NON-speeders who tailgate. And you can't speed AND tailgate a NON-speeder at the same time, so most speeders who tailgate are mostly tailgating OTHER speeders; rarely a NON-speeder.


"The fact of the matter is that you have far less time to react at 85 than you do at 65."

The fact of the matter is that reaction time isn't directly affected by speed - it's controlled by speed AND distance. So that statement is false. You CAN have MORE time to react doing 85 if you're 1/4 mile from the nearest vehicle than you would at 65 if you're 10 feet behind another vehicle.

Speed is NOT inherently dangerous. Even if it's above the posted limit, it's not necessarily more dangerous than doing the posted speed. It takes a driver to determine what's dangerous, and if you look at the number of drivers who are NOT involved in a collision on US (or Canadian) roads each day, you'll have to agree that MOST make the correct determinations. Obviously, a sign can't see what's happening on the road & change the number it displays, so how important CAN that number be? What's the science behind picking the numbers that get put on those signs? Is it some mile-long formula derived from the Newtonian Laws and Einstein's theories? Or is it an arbitrary guess by a minimum-wage government employee who played with Matchbox cars before flunking out of community college? Is he more qualified to determine the maximum safe speed under ANY conditions than I? After all, I'm there - looking at the road the same moment I'm driving it. And assuming I obey the law - does that guarantee me that I WON'T be involved in a wreck? If I am, can I sue him for telling me it was safe when it wasn't? Obviously not, which means it's always up to me to determine how fast is fast enough.


For anyone who thinks it's relevant:
I've had more wrecks than I can remember, but I'll guess 20 in as many years of driving. Fewer than 1/2 were my fault.
None involved a fatality. None involved a pedestrian or cyclist.
Only one was above 30mph (MY speed) and I was the only driver involved in my 45mph rollover in a 65 zone.
I've gotten more speeding tickets than I can remember - most were dismissed.
I studied engineering at the collegiate level for 4 years, including Statics and Dynamics, which cover vehicular collisions.
Several of my best friends are cops - city, county, & state. Several others are lawyers, and we often discuss traffic laws & their enforcement.

 

HI ALL : reminds me of a friend i have. well,he's driving in the fast lane a bit over the speed limit.he's got a ford explorer.i'd say a 97 or so.this cadillac pulls in back of him and gets all teed off.cadillac goes around him and pulls directly in front of him and locks his brakes.BINGO !!!cadillac has several thousand in damage and his explore has none.go figure with all those idiots on the roads.they just don't learn or understand.

 

Ok, you have convinced me, speeding is perfectly safe. Now can you please convince these people;

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/shpolicy.htm

and these people;

http://www.saferoads.org/issues/fs-speed.htm

and these people;

http://www.highwaysafety.org/safety_facts/qanda/speed_limits.htm

and these people;

http://www.pastnh.org/

and these people;

http://www.svcn.com/archives/wgresident/10.11.00/cab-0041.html

and these people;

http://www.officeofroadsafety.wa.gov.au/Facts/big_four.html


Thanks.

 

Well said 3MTA3 ! ! !

I know I am gonna go out right now and speed and tailgate, and be as obnoxious of a driver as I can, and all thanks to this thread telling me it is safer to drive this way rather than obey traffic laws and ignore common sense.

 

>Well said 3MTA3 ! ! !
>
>I know I am gonna go out right now and speed and tailgate,
>and be as obnoxious of a driver as I can, and all thanks to
>this thread telling me it is safer to drive this way rather
>than obey traffic laws and ignore common sense.

And don't forget to flash your lights and finger at all the law abiding citizens too!

 

Don't believe everything you read. I went to all of those sites and found SEVERAL discrepancies in their statistics. Not only were many of their stats blatantly wrong, but also each site quoted a different # for every statistic. Even these guys can't agree on their lies. Folks, statistics can be manipulated, misquoted, and just plain falsified (lies on the internet? no way!) to make any point the author wants.

In the end, everything boils down to common sense. If you drive fast, don't do it in heavy traffic where traffic patterns & the flow of traffic make YOU the odd man out. Don't weave around cars. Don't tailgate because you're just asking for trouble. Even if the guy in front of you is jerk doing 55 in the left lane of a 65 with no cars in front of him, look for a safer way of going around or just keep flashing your high beams until (hopefully) the light bulb in his head turns on and he clears the way. Otherwise, if traffic patterns allow for it and you feel comfortable, go ahead and exceed the limit, WITHIN REASON. This doesn't mean doing 90+ MPH in a 55; that's just stupid no matter how you look at it. But at the same time, if traffic patterns allow you to move at 75-80 in a 65, I don't see this as a problem.

And if you are among those who see the posted speed limit as a maximum that you feel should never be exceeded, that is your choice, and I respect it. However, it is NOT incumbent on you to force everyone else into moving at your pace by blocking the left lane and frustrating everyone behind you. At that point, YOU are the problem. You are not doing anyone a service and are only aggravating those around you and imposing your ignorance on everyone else. I can respect the fact that some people are not comfortable exceeding the limit; heck there are people who aren't even comfortable REACHING the speed limit. I have no intention of ramming or tailgating them to increase their speed. At the same time, I hope they can respect my choice and allow me to safely pass. A simple flash of the high-beams should be the equivalent of 2 runners on a track where the passing runner yells "track." The other guy simply gives him the right of way. THAT is courtesy. THAT is common sense.

The main issue at the heart of this debate is a lack of common sense. If people had better common sense and put more thought into their actions, the government wouldn't have to impose these speed limits. Unfortunately, there are too many blockheads out there on both ends of this spectrum (fast drivers, slow drivers) who ruin it for the rest of us.

The above was not meant to offend anyone, and I regret if any readers chose to perceive my comments as offensive. Unless, of course, you are one of those ignorant & dangerous 100 MPH highway drivers who tailgates everyone OR one of those ignorant & dangerous (yes, dangerous -- it's people like you who cause road rage) 60 in a 65 drivers who refuses to share the roads and let others pass.

Now, I will step off the soapbox and let someone else have their turn. Thanks for listening.

 

One more comment/story, if I may. This one will be aimed more towards the spirit of this post, rather than the speed limit battle it started.

The other night, I was on a long (about 100 mile) drive down the interstate. It was late, the night was clear, the roads were dry, and traffic was light. My radar detector was on, I had "The Band" in my CD player, the humm of my V-8 for company, and a fresh cup of coffee in my cup holder.

I was in the left lane in a 65 with my cruise control set at 80, using the pedals only on those rare occasions where the guy in front of me didn't notice I was coming and get out of my way in time for me to maintain my speed (NO, I did not tailgate). For the first few miles, I was alone. As my drive progressed, however, I noticed that I was in the lead of a 5-10 car caravan, all of whom were following me & letting me clear their path!

A few vehicles changed positions here and there, but no one got in front of me. At one point, the C@maro behind me got a bit too close for comfort, so I moved to the right lane (thinking he wanted to pass) and kept the cruise control where it was at 80. The guy started to inch forward. By the time he was nose-to-nose with my truck, he must have realized what he was doing because he slowed down & merged into the right lane directly behind me (this time he kept some distance between us). The lane was clear so I stayed there, still doing my 80. I kept my eye on the rear-view, and noticed all 7 cars in the caravan merging right, following my lead!

They didn't slow down; the caravan maintained itself, and they left me in the front. We had one fool in a white Hond@ buzz past us all, but otherwise our group stayed together. About 10-15 miles down the road, the Hond@ was pulled over with a state trooper’s lights flashing behind his car. We slowed down to 75 until we passed the scene.

Apparently, everyone got used to having my & my F-250 in the front to clear the way. If I saw a car in my path, I would give them a quick & polite flash of the high beams well before I was close enough to have to slow down. If they didn’t notice, I’d flash again once or twice as I got closer. Most vehicles noticed & were polite (or perhaps intimidated?) enough to clear the path. THIS is what courteous & safe driving is to me. This is also why my F-250 is great at getting others “out of my way.” I felt kinda’ like a snow-plow driver clearing the road with everyone else following directly behind.

 

Is it not a fact the cops always get the lead car when people are speeding?

I know it is that way in this province.

A lot of people that I know say,"I can just Follow along at 10-15 over because they always get the lead vehicle"

They got the Honda ,he was the in front, right?


Back during the 70's I understand that The police didn't give out Speeding tickets on the interstate highway, instead, they gave out
"Un-necessary Waste of Natural Resources* ticket's.

Is this true?


Regarding the Intimidation factor of a pickup
Pick-up's don't bother me.

To me it doesn't matter until there is a 3 Ton Truck or a Tractor Trailer unit that is Right on my butt.


Dennis

F.T.E. Assistant Administrator
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