I haven't posted anything in a long time on FTE, so I feel I need to contribute .

Apparently there IS a 400 Cleveland. The 400C was used in cars from 1972-1974 (1971 model year) before it was known as the M-Block. In 1975, the 351C and 400C were mixed to create the 351M (hence 351M/400). The 400C came first and then was de-stroked to create the 351M. Some rare 400C blocks were cast with a double transmission bolt pattern to fit both the small block or big block transmissions. In addition, the 400C may or may not have shared the same bottom end as the 351C up until 1974 (I'm not sure, the information is a little scarce).

No, I'm not looking to get my @$$ handed to me, but I would like to know from anybody with a "400C" if this information is correct. I've also found a few books referencing a "351-400C" as opposed to the "351-400M" mentioned in the same book, so there may be other differences. That list of books can be found here:

http://www.motonet.co.nz/abd/Catalog...eb_2/web_2.HTM

Here are a few other interesting links:

Background on the 400C:

http://home.comcast.net/~jelerath/mu.../specs-fr.html

400C blocks for sale down under:

http://www.allford.net.au/List%20of%...d%20Motors.htm

This could get interesting. There maybe a reason to back up calling the 400 the "400M" all these years.

 

Absolutely not, it was just a 400, not a 400C, and certainly not a 400M. I drove many 400's. Introduced in the full size cars in 1971 they were designated as a 400 on the aircleaner, emissions/ID tags, window stickers, maintenance manuals, and in the showrooms. People liked them. They are a tall deck Cleveland type block and many parts interchange.

Ford only uses letter designations for the 4" bore 3.5" stroke engines; 351C, 351M, 351W and the 352. The 351M is a de-stroked 400 which was produced to increase the supply of ~350 cube engines which were very popular.

Take a look at this site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/

ps. If we called them 400 Clevelands the Chebby guys soiled their underwear tho...

 

Ahh... Thanks for the link, that helped a lot on the background story.

I also checked a 1964-71 Chilton I have, and listed is just a "400" like you said for '71. No HP or TQ specifications, but it listed the main journals as being the same as the 390FE (2.788).

I'm a pretty big fan of the Cleveland, and the 400 having a heritage like that, I'm surprised more of these aren't built and installed in mustangs and cougars. Maybe they are and I haven't heard about them? That may become my new my secret plan: construct a Cougar Eliminator clone with a 400...

Chebbie guys would run out of underwear really fast...

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

The 351C and 400 were introduced in model year 1970, not 1972. There's no such thing as a 400C. Not then, not now, not ever. The early 351C 4 bolt main engine blocks were plagued with sand casting holes. The problem was so bad that Ford came out with a metallic sealer, that one could fill the holes with. Many a customer drove in for an oil change, and drove out with the holes filled with sealer. There was never an official announcement, or a recall, just the campaign letter from Ford to their dealers. No F Series trucks ever used a 351C. First use of the 351M/400 engines in F Series: 1977.

 

Clevelands, as said, were not trouble free. Heads cracking was also a trick they pulled. Not easy to make them run right, either. Note the 2bbl heads are the better head...how can that be? As for 400s, they were the biggest turd of their time. Only recently can you get proper parts to make a runner out of them. (see the threads) So why would you take a good running 289/302/351w that you could easily hop up out of a Mustang or Cougar and put in a turd on a rope 400 that could barely move out of it's own way in stock trim, and for which there were no goodies to make it go-fast? Despite the now-available goodies, a reputation like the 400s doesn't die easily, and is, in fact, one of the dozens of reasons that many people will not buy a Ford to this day.

 

The 1971 400 was by no means a turd.

 

The 351C and the 302C were fitted to all F-Series assembled in Australia

 

The early 351C 2V and 400 engines weren't fraught with the problems affecting the 351C 4 bolters, or the later 351M/400's.

Poor quality cylinder heads installed on 1975/76 351M and 400 engines began cracking by 1977. Ford never had a recall or a campaign letter to repair them. The warranty then was 2 years or 24,000 miles...PERIOD. The customers were stuck as a bug in a rug, and had to decide whether to buy a new bare head, or a rebuilt head with valves. Most opted for the rebuilt heads, and since the old heads were junk, they had to pay a core charge, too. A pair of rebuilt heads listed out at $400.00 including the core charge. The dealer I worked at during this time must have sold a thousand of those heads from 1977 thru 1981. With Ford showing little interest in fixing the head problems, faulty ignition modules, and crappy C3 transmissions, and other issues from the late 1970's, it's no wonder ppl started buying other makes.

 

71 400 definitely not a turd- especially for a 2v.

Nearly all engines were turds beginning in 72. 460 was down to 210hp and the 351w? bad. all makes had the turd issue due to smog requirements.

The issue with 400 is they didn't have a rep before '72. One good year to make an impression...what folks don't realize is that all the engines suffered a great deal. Then the ones made that had head probs as described. Gotta agree and say that ford seldom showed the integrity to fix stuff right and they lost a bunch of business imo. At least you can get the info now to stay away from the 'bad' ones. I still won't own a newer ford...they lost me as a customer to this day. (Except the new stang...they did that right it seems.)

But the older stuff....yum....Ford even played with the 400 4v- never had a chance with the new smog regs tho. Ford basically designed the 400 as we use it today and I like it. Cleveland 4v heads are amazing...just too much for the street if built right...or not for that matter.

This forum will tell you everything you could possibly want to know about the 400...been that way for a while...search function is great if you go advanced and learn how to use it.

 

I've spent a lot of time reading about the 400 on this forum but never ran into the 400C debate . I almost ended up putting a 400 in my '50.

As far as the 400 being a turd, I know enough of the 351M/400 history to know that they were unfairly smogged into submission. Smog the crap out of anything and it will acquire a bad rap. 400 cubic inches means theres a lot of potential for power, and with the after market finally catching on, it seems only a matter of time really before they become popular in cars as well. CHI seem to make a nice Hi-Po heads/intake setup for the 400... I agree with roger dowty, a bad first impression can sink you.

85e150six4mtod, as for not hopping up a Windsor, there are a few major reasons that I myself would take the road less traveled. For one, it's been done over so many times... every time you see a Mustang with a Windsor, you go "Ok, a 351." However, you run into a car with a Cleveland or derivative engine, it attracts a bit more attention (from me at least). Two, the 351C, 351M/400 sound different from the Windsor. A lot of the difference in the way your car or truck appears to the senses is also the sound; the latter versus the Windsor (in my opinion) sounds a bit more racy. Third, I believe (and this is just from reading I've done over the years) a stock 351w block can take about 650 HP before it blows the block where as the 351C can take about 750 HP. Of course I'm not talking after market, but stock blocks in good condition. Cracking... I guess there is good and bad to everything. The 351C-351M/400 just seems to have a certain glow about it .

I'm NOT saying the Windsor is in anyway a bad engine, my dad has a 302 in his van and it runs great after 38 years of service. I just think it's awesome to have an "underdog" power plant... Which sparked my whole investigation into the 400C issue.

Thanks for the responses guys, this has turned out to be quite informative.

 

Huh? Stick to the Windsor forum.

 

And how much different is that from how Ford has treated the poor quality heads on the 2.9 and early 4.0 V6 motors? Those heads were so bad at cracking that even World Products brought out a street replacement head so rebuilders could buy a decent core. Yep, cracked heads aren't unique to the 351M/400.

--J

 

sorry, off-topic, 73XA - do you have the car that fits your username by any chance?

 

Actually, I was wondering that myself...


Australian Muscle cars

 

Yep, 10/73 XA Fairmont GS hardtop (JG67NC), Ford verified and homed in the US. Got a 400FMX block motor with a 2003 built Tremec TKO II 5spd and beefed up 1996 built Ford 8.8" diff from a Mustang.

So how did your F350 get to Oz?

--J