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Old Mar 1, 2007 | 08:48 PM
  #16  
"Beemer Nut"'s Avatar
"Beemer Nut"
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From: "Islander"
Before you pull the nut and yoke off that leaker check the pinion
for bearing play. You shouldn't have any or else your gear wear pattern will
have gone to hell big time. Any whine? Check the magnetic plug if it has one
for large amounts of metal paste, some is normal after many miles.
 
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Old Mar 1, 2007 | 08:56 PM
  #17  
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acheda
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Do what Beemer Nut said; then:

The spring is part of the seal - it keeps the seal lip against the shaft (in this case, the yoke). Your new seal will have a new spring. No problem.

The front bearing is a snug, but sliding fit on the pinion shaft. See if you can snag it in a few places with some small screw-drivers and slide it out. This is a tapered-roller bearing (aka: Timken bearing) and the "cone" assembly is the inner race and the tapered rollers held in a cage. (If this all falls apart, the bearing is shot.) The outer race or "cup" is pressed in the pinion carrier, which will still be fastened to the rear axle by five bolts. Wipe down the cup with a clean rag and inspect it. It should be smooth & shiney. If there are score marks, big pits, or any other kind of damage, you will have to consider pulling the pinion carrier and replacing the bearings. You could just take the whole carrier assembly to an understanding shop and save some $$$ over taking the vehicle in. Likewise, after cleaning in solvent or very hot, soapy water, inspect the rollers for defects. Use air to blow dry if you are going to re-use.

The next thing inside (& the last part that will come out the front) is the crush sleeve which is a funny, barrel-shaped sleeve. If you can get the old one out, I still suggest getting a new one. It will not cost much and you will be more likely to get some mileage out of the job.

Assembly: install the crush sleeve, the bearing cup (inner race & caged rollers), and then the seal. The seal will have to be pressed - in this case hammered into its bore in the pinion carrier. Normally a special tool that fully supports the entire rim of the seal is used. Without the tool, you will have to CAREFULLY do a lot of tapping to get the seal into its bore. (Do not forget to coat this joint with a little Permatex or similar oil-resistant sealer prior to installation. I am speaking of the outside diameter of the seal.) A flat tipped punch (say a 3/4" round or square piece of steel) will make the tapping easier. Take your time and keep it straight all the way in. Then slide the yoke back on, re-place the nut & washer. The next thing is to torque the nut to the book value -- I'll try to look it up for you tomorrow as I am about to hit the sack.) Also read one of my earlier posts for how to keep track of the bearing clearance.

Read all this and ask a few more questions before you actually do it. The worst you can do is screw up the seal. One other thing is that you need to eliminate all clearance (slop) in the bearing and then tighten a little more so that there is a pre-load. Pre-load is necessary, but only a small amount. Torquing to the proper value with a new crush sleeve is going to get you close. New pros use a tool to measure the bearing's drag to see if the pre-load is correct; the old pros have done so many that they have a "callibrated hand" and can just give it a turn to see if it is OK.
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 12:31 AM
  #18  
"Beemer Nut"'s Avatar
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From: "Islander"
As acheda stated at the end of his reply, the bearing preload drag a "feel" thing or with a inch/lbs torque wrench not ft/lbs and should be done without the added seal drag.
New bearings higher preload vs old or used broken in bearing torque to turn numbers.
Rear diffs require nats azz settings to last, if not a short life.
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 07:23 AM
  #19  
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acheda
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I agree with everything Beemer says, but if you are under the vehicle, using an old crush sleeve, & have minimal tools & experience, the bottom line is to be sure to take up all the slop (clearance) -- then a little more to get some pre-load. Do not get carried away.

I have my '65 Ford shop manual in front of me now. Let me add that between the seal & bearing cone, there is a slinger washer. No big deal - just put it back where it came from.

The torque when using a new crush sleeve is 175 ft-lbs, but the manual states to check it with seal in place. This is because you are not ever supposed to crush a crush sleeve twice, so you cannot do it the "right" way (below). With used parts, I still say to take out all the play and then go a little more. The torque value is just a reference to give you an idea that you are unlikely to over tighten that nut with a short wrench handle.

P.S.: 427's & 390 std trans models came from the factory with solid spacers/shims instead of a crush sleeve, so you know how Ford engineers felt about crush sleeves. (The shaft nut torque given for a solid spacer is 180-220 ft-lbs.) With the solid spacer setup you can do it right and set it all up without the seal and once it is "perfect", you can take it apart, put in the seal, and you will get the proper bearing drag at the same torque upon reassembly. (All this fussing is why shops charge so much. Shops that do not do all this make more $$$ on one job, but then need to make good on jobs that go sour.)
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 04:27 PM
  #20  
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how much oil will the rear hold and is there too much you can put in. what is the best way to fill up... just tilt the front up and fill? what is the best way to seat up the seal? or does the torqing on the pinion seat itself?
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 05:03 PM
  #21  
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My Ford shop manual says 5 pints of 90 weight HYPOID gear oil for all autos & I would expect the pickups to be the same. In most cases there is a fill plug in the back of the domed part of the axle housing. You fill level with the hole - not below or above. (Don't laugh, service stations have been known to use their pumps to overfill by putting a rag around the filler spout, pumping like hell, and then rapidly putting the plug in. The more they put in the more profit. Then you come back next week to have them work on the rear brakes.)

Some early housings had a drain plug, but the cost cutters saved a penny by eliminating it because you can drain the housing by removing the "punkin". This also happened to auto transmissions. You should drain out all the old oil and inspect it for metal particles as Beemer suggested. A little "sparkle" is normal; a lot of metal paste is a red flag.

On the last question we better be careful: The seal is seated in its bore in the pinion carrier by being pressed in - we discussed doing a lot of small taps with a hammer & flat punch earlier. The yoke (the part you unbolted the U-joints from) slides onto its splines on pinion gear shaft (the gear is at the other end of the pinion shaft, so you cannot see it). Then the washer & nut are installed and tightened. Do another dry run reading the procedures already discussed.
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 05:26 PM
  #22  
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Hunting & non-hunting ratios . . .

My 65 Ford (car) shop manual has a table regarding hunting:

39-teeth/13-teeth = 3.00:1 Ratio is Non-hunting
39-teeth/12-teeth = 3.25:1 Ratio is Partial Non-hunting (treat as non-hunting)
35-teeth/10-teeth = 3.50:1 Ratio is Partial Non-hunting (treat as non-hunting)
35-teeth/9-teeth = 3.89:1 Ratio is Partial Non-hunting (treat as non-hunting)
37-teeth/9-teeth = 4.11:1 Ratio is Hunting

Obviously my memory of 30-teeth/10-teeth = 3.00:1 Ratio was WRONG.

Those who KNOW this info for the higher or missing ratios, please feel free to add to the list. Remember the ratios are sometimes rounded up or down differently by different vendors. I believe 4.10/4.11 and 4.56/4.57 are good examples of this, but be careful because you could get a 3.90 ratio with a 39/10 gear pair which is NOT the same as the 3.89 above, as it would not be a hunting ratio (nothing with an even-numbered pinion is ever hunting a ratio).(Unfortunately, some odd-numbered pinion pairs are also non-hunting, depending on how they divide into the ring gear number.)
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 07:42 PM
  #23  
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From: "Islander"
You will find most the time gear numbers in odd tooth counts not like 3.00 to 1.00 10 to 30 tooth to prevent repeated contact on the same tooth causing a wear pattern to set in.
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 08:43 PM
  #24  
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acheda
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More hunting ratios . . .

These are Dana 70 ratios, but will apply to any gears made by anyone that have the same number of teeth.

46-teeth/13-teeth= 3.54 is hunting
41-teeth/11-teeth= 3.73 is hunting
41-teeth/10-teeth= 4.10 is non-hunting
41-teeth/9-teeth= 4.56 is hunting
39-teeth/8-teeth= 4.88 is non-hunting

Even though many real ring & pinion sets are non-hunting it is true that the hunting ratios are more likely to equalize wear over all teeth and not get noisy as they wear. It looks as if Spicer designers stuck with mostly hunting ratios, but from 4.88 on up the pinion tooth count is either 8 or 6, so these would be non-hunting. There are a lot of high-mileage Ford 3.00 gears out there that are still quiet, so the non-hunting gears can do fine. Even so, I will join Beemer and state my preference for hunting ratios, like the 3.54's I am about to put into the Dana 70 in my F-350. If I go back to the 4.56 ratio, I'll still be hunting.
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 08:49 PM
  #25  
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okay i may be nuts but i cannot find a fill hole. suggestions?
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 08:52 PM
  #26  
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If I correct my own error is it still a mistake?

Originally Posted by acheda
. . . Remember the ratios are sometimes rounded up or down differently by different vendors. I believe 4.10/4.11 and 4.56/4.57 are good examples of this, but be careful because you could get a 3.90 ratio with a 39/10 gear pair which is NOT the same as the 3.89 above, as it would not be a hunting ratio (nothing with an even-numbered pinion is ever hunting a ratio).(Unfortunately, some odd-numbered pinion pairs are also non-hunting, depending on how they divide into the ring gear number.)
ERROR CORRECTION: It turns out (see my previous post), that the 4.10 and 4.11 ratios are NOT the same. 4.10 comes from 41/10(non-hunting) while 4.11 comes from 37/9(hunting). It may be that there is a 4.57 that does not come from 41/9.

Also, directly from the Ford manual: (only) hunting ratios can be assembled without matching the manufacturing marks. (On Ford 9" they are on the end of the pinion and on the INSIDE end of the gap between two ring gear teeth.)
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 09:00 PM
  #27  
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Let me drag down to the depths of my memory . . . I think that some 9" rears had a filler hole somewhere on the front side of the main casting. The one on the back is easier to find. To find the front one you will need good light and will probably have to do some cleaning. The plug on the back is often a recessed square that you can handle with one of your socket square drives or it is a male that your good ol' cresent wrench will handle. I think the ones on the front are a female hex, so you will probably have to buy a big allen wrench of a hex driver.
 
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Old Mar 2, 2007 | 09:26 PM
  #28  
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From: "Islander"
A length of keyway stock and 12 piont socket works wonders especially when dealing with a metric square.
The 9" should have the filler on the front of the drop out.
Get it hot and pump it out.
 
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Old Mar 3, 2007 | 12:08 PM
  #29  
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now i really feel like i'm going nuts. i cannot find ANY fill holes and i cleaned the housing to make sure. what now?
 
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Old Mar 3, 2007 | 12:37 PM
  #30  
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There has to be a pipe plug on the back or on the pumpkin.
 
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