I was wonering if any of you are running bigger or modified turbo. My question is my 99' F-250 is a first gen and not with the 99.5'-03' gen and I still the same surging problem but banks only has compressor wheel for the 2nd gen. Wha is the difference in the turbos.

 

You should take your question to the 1999 - 2003 7.3L Power Stroke Diesel forum. They see these kind of questions all the time. That is where I hang out and I think there is a post like yours already. Check it out and you won't be sorry. Welcome to FTE.

 

Welcome to FTE! (moved to 7.3L PSD section)

 

Screwylouie, if someone with an early 99 truck wants to modify their turbo, usually they convert it to a late 99. They make a kit that includes a new pedestal, new intake plenums, new manifold boots, new compressor manifold, new exhaust collector and up pipes if needed, to use a late 99 turbo on an early truck. There are LOTS of mods available for a late turbo it'self or a whole new unit.

But your stock turbo shouldn't surge with that compressor wheel unless you really have lots of mods.

 

what is this surging?

 

From Garrett's turbo tech page, skip over the "throttle" and "BOV" terms, gasoline specific...

Surge is the left hand boundary of the compressor map. Operation to the left of this line represents a region of flow instability. This region is characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
Surge is most commonly experienced when one of two situations exist. The first and most damaging is surge under load. It can be an indication that your compressor is too large. Surge is also commonly experienced when the throttle is quickly closed after boosting. This occurs because mass flow is drastically reduced as the throttle is closed, but the turbo is still spinning and generating boost. This immediately drives the operating point to the far left of the compressor map, right into surge.



Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.

A Ported Shroud compressor (see Fig. 2) is a feature that is incorporated into the compressor housing. It functions to move the surge line further to the left (see Fig. 3) by allowing some airflow to exit the wheel through the port to keep surge from occurring. This provides additional useable range and allows a larger compressor to be used for higher flow requirements without risking running the compressor into a dangerous surge condition. The presence of the ported shroud usually has a minor negative impact on compressor efficiency.

 

right on thanks

 

Check out these links, they explain all you need to know to fix your problem! As noted there, ATTENTION!! If you have a pre-99.5 7.3L you already have a Superior Wheel. In other words, the "so called Banks wheel" is really just a pre-99.5 OEM wheel. I know this for a fact, because I had to replace my pre-99.5 turbo with a rebuilt one from a Ford dealer, and it came with the latter 99.5 wheel. This made my original problem even worse, and I had to have turbo pulled again, and wheel changed to a pre-99.5 version. At that time, I also had a TAG 2 installed, and replaced my K&N Aircharger (which was the biggest contributor to the problem) with a Ford severe duty AIS.

I considered converting to a 99.5 turbo, but decided that this wouldn't be worthwhile unless I also upgraded to the larger intake manifold, and pretty soon I was rebuilding the whole truck!

http://www.blackclouddiesel.com/Ford/TAG/tag.htm

http://www.blackclouddiesel.com/Tech/Superior%20Wheel%20Installation%20Guide.pdf

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/265866/i/TAG-II_Ford.pdf

 

Ernesteugene, are you saying that the TAG cures surge? I don't see how that would help, in fact it would make it worse due to more air exiting the compressor and having no where to go other than back out through it.

 

Strokin_it, my problem was not the slow build up and then release of compressed air back through the compressor wheel, the waxing and waning noise when pulling long grades sometimes reported with the later model trucks.

My problem was due to instabilities in the air flow which were causing the compressor wheel to stall intermittently. This produces a rattling/shuttering sound from the turbo when towing up long steep grades. My noise started at the first long grade after I switched from a K&N flat (in an updated 99.5 air box) to the K&N Aircharger. I won't give the name, but when I complained about the noise to the owner of the well known shop in GA that installed the Aircharger, I was told it was waste gate chatter, vortex noise, etc..., and not to worry about it.

Listening to the wrong "experts" can be costly, as this "not-to-worry-about" noise was doing severe damage to my turbo bearing! Eventually, the bearing got loose enough for the turbine to hit the case and chip some blades. After that my truck sounded like a police siren, and I knew it was time for a new turbo. The bearings on my old turbo were sloppy loose, and anyone with this noise can easily check for worn bearings from the intake side.

My simple minded analogy as to why the TAG 2 helps for my problem is as follows. Consider a sink full of water emptying through a wide open drain. Under the right conditions, a tornado like vortex develops which produces much instability at the mouth of the drain. It can even start gulping some air along with the water. If you put a diffuser in the drain, this vortex effect is eliminated, and the sink actually empties faster!

 

Excellent analogy Ernest.

I used to get the pressure cooker hissing sound when I was towing and traveling 75-80mph up the long grade hills between San Antonio and El Paso. Then I changed out my K&N and TruFlow stock box filters to put in the S&B intake kit.

The engine breathes much, much better now, but now in addition to the pressure cooker hiss that I assumed was the waste gate releasing pressure, now I also can hear the turbo barking as it surges and stalls.

So, will the TAG and TAG2 solve the problem? I really hate to kill the turbo whistle that I love so much.

I assume, if a guy is going to do it, it only makes sense to install both?

 

No, crosbo the TAG's wont cure surge. What you need to do is change the compressor wheel to a Wicked Wheel at www.xtremediesel.com, it is designed to cure most of the surge situations. And it just so happens you get a ton more whistle!

 

HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA THE TAG.... HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH Tag.. your it....HAHAHHAHAHAHAH

 

Crosbo, I posted some pictures in my personal gallery, and here are some inputs based on my personal experience. Unfortunately when it comes to my truck, experience seems to be what I get when I'm expecting something else, and it just means that I didn't get it right the first time, or sometimes even the second or third!

As far as I can tell, a wicked wheel = a Banks wheel = a Pre-99.5 OEM wheel! While visiting truck shops around the country, I've been shown wheels advertised as each, and they all look the same to me. I posted pictures from three different angles of my new Pre-99.5 OEM wheel just prior to its installation and one after it was installed. The wheel in these pictures is the same as the one on my original blown turbo. The picture of the new (rebuilt) turbo being removed, shows that it came with the later Post-99.5 wheel that has all identical compressor blades, as opposed to the Pre-99.5 wheel that has two different types of blades that alternate.

Considering the above, my truck had a wicked wheel when the surging, or whatever you want to call the compressor stalling/shuttering problem I was having after installing the K&N Aircharger, damaged the turbo bearing. My turbo blew at 50K miles, just 10K miles after installing the Aircharger and starting to hear the shuttering noise while towing every grade, and about 8K of those miles were towing.

I don't believe the party line that the noise was always there and I just couldn't hear it before the Aircharger because it was muffled by the OEM air box. I could hear the turbo spool just fine with a flat K&N in an updated 99.5 air box. Also, I've done some SCCA racing and flown single engine planes, and I think I've developed a pretty good ear for detecting different or unusual engine noises.

A wicked wheel does help reduce surging, because my shuttering noise was much worse after the new turbo (with the Post-99.5 wheel) was installed. I had to tow about 300 miles before I could get the wheel changed, and could only use first gear on the Grapevine for fear of damaging my new turbo.

After the TAG and new wheel were installed, I did some test runs with an empty truck in OD on steep grades and tried to load/lug the engine as much as possible, and I didn't hear even a hint of the dreaded noise. I admit that this test doesn't prove conclusively that the TAG fixed my problem. Unfortunately, I couldn't talk my wife into letting me hook up the trailer and do a proper test run before I trashed the Aircharger for a Ford severe duty AIS. However, after 30K+ of hard towing miles including many mountain grades, I haven't heard a peep from my new setup.

 

I know the TAG was originally designed and tested for the Dodge, and I looked on their TDR site to see what I could find out about it. Not much about anything, without becoming a dues paying member! Well, curiosity got the better of me and I paid up and started nosing around.

I checked a bunch of posts, and they were all positive to varying degrees except for one that involved a cracked housing on his TAG. This one concerned me, until further research showed it referred to a TAG 3 which has a plastic housing. BTW, if our FTE site was even half as fast as the TDR and Duramax sites, we would all save a lot of time!

The TDR post that I quote below is from a "claimed expert" for whatever that's worth, and it seems to support my "water down the drain" analogy.

"My background is I am a retired Manufacturing Coordinator from Exxon Chemical and I have over 20 years experience with centrifugal compressors. I am familiar with methods of how to make them last longer and run at their highest efficiency to maximize production.

So the other day on my quest to find goodies for my new 03 H.O 6 speed, I ran across a fella in Pasco WA. on the internet that owns Diesel Power Products. Dave Meheen and I speak the same language when it comes to centrifugal compressor efficiency enhancement. I have been acquainted with vortex breakers that straighten the spinning air prior to entering the center intake of a centrifugal compressor. There is an enhanced efficiency benefit to performance and output if this technology is applied correctly.

Dave provided one of his Turbo Air Guide units at my request to see if it really does the same type of improvements for the Turbo charger which is, as we all know, a centrifugal compressor. The difference on my stock truck was a REAL KICK IN THE PANTS! Man this was more than noticeable it was fun. The spool up was dramatically improved and the truck ran with the response and kick of a high performance gasoline big block but pulled with bigggg torque in 5th and 6th. I went hot rodding, this was "fun", and I am wondering? If I really need a fueling box. Especially after I get the exhaust reworked and an Afe on this thing. REALLY! I can't believe that the engineers of the major manufacturers haven't tried this or did Dave just beat them to the punch."