Flat tappet cams
Laughing Gas
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 781
Likes: 18
From: East Texas
I've got a thread on down the forum about a reply I got back from Shell regarding their new CJ-4 Rotella. They indicate the levels of zinc in it are 50% higher than found in SM rated oils and they think it will serve well in flat tappet engines. I contacted them because of the change in API ratings on diesel motor oils to CJ-4 from CI-4+. That is what I'll continue to use on my 77.
I believe I've read that the additive packages (zinc, etc.) have been changed/reduced for emissions, fuel economy, etc.
I believe I've read that the additive packages (zinc, etc.) have been changed/reduced for emissions, fuel economy, etc.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
What happened is that the emissions warranty is now up to 120,000 miles and there is a chance that the cat wont last that long if there is a high amount of phosphorus in the oil. ZDDP, contains both zinc and phosphorus. Roller cams have been standard on gassers for more than a decade now, so Ford doesnt care about your 1977, they care about future emissions warranty claims on what they sell now. Ford, GM, DCX and the Japanese carmakers get together and set the oil spec. For fuel economy, they set a reduced limit for High Temperature High Shear viscosity. That can also be a problem for flat tappet cams.
Jim
Jim
Laughing Gas
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 781
Likes: 18
From: East Texas
Probably the simplest method is using the diesel oil. The 351M in my 77 was rebuilt (quality job) about this time last year, so I want to make sure it's protected. I'm going to stick with Rotella. My problem is that I want to use 10W-30. That's not as readily available locally, so I have to do some searching. Delo would probably be similar in additives to Rotella, though I didn't contact Chevron. Mystik JT-8 oil would be good as well.
As far as what to look for, and there are folks in this forum that know considerably more than I do, for gas oils an API rating of SL or older I believe indicates higher levels of antiwear additives (zinc, phosphorous, etc.) Oils with API ratings of SM have reduced levels. These oils (SM) are the most common now on store shelves, from what I've seen locally.
I believe someone on the board mentioned an oil supplement from CD2 that boosts the antiwear properties when added to the oil.
As far as what to look for, and there are folks in this forum that know considerably more than I do, for gas oils an API rating of SL or older I believe indicates higher levels of antiwear additives (zinc, phosphorous, etc.) Oils with API ratings of SM have reduced levels. These oils (SM) are the most common now on store shelves, from what I've seen locally.
I believe someone on the board mentioned an oil supplement from CD2 that boosts the antiwear properties when added to the oil.
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2005
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So if i use an oil with reduced antiwear aditives over how long does it take to develope problems. Such as 2000 miles or 50,000 miles or does it just depend on the engine.
I think what has to be done is the companys need to say is that new oils no longer have to protection to serve flat tappet cams.
I think what has to be done is the companys need to say is that new oils no longer have to protection to serve flat tappet cams.
Last edited by Ford150/428/dud; Feb 5, 2007 at 04:55 PM.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 781
Likes: 18
From: East Texas
I don't have any idea as to time frame for problems to appear. I did not know about additive packages myself until perusing this forum and reading some of the information on oils and flat tappet cams. Once I did some research, I decided I didn't want to take any chances and switched to diesel motor oil.
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Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 6
From: Northern California
Tall Paul, where are you?
Originally Posted by firstonraceday
Probably the simplest method is using the diesel oil. The 351M in my 77 was rebuilt (quality job) about this time last year, so I want to make sure it's protected. I'm going to stick with Rotella. My problem is that I want to use 10W-30. That's not as readily available locally, so I have to do some searching. Delo would probably be similar in additives to Rotella, though I didn't contact Chevron. Mystik JT-8 oil would be good as well.
As far as what to look for, and there are folks in this forum that know considerably more than I do, for gas oils an API rating of SL or older I believe indicates higher levels of antiwear additives (zinc, phosphorous, etc.) Oils with API ratings of SM have reduced levels. These oils (SM) are the most common now on store shelves, from what I've seen locally.
I believe someone on the board mentioned an oil supplement from CD2 that boosts the antiwear properties when added to the oil.
As far as what to look for, and there are folks in this forum that know considerably more than I do, for gas oils an API rating of SL or older I believe indicates higher levels of antiwear additives (zinc, phosphorous, etc.) Oils with API ratings of SM have reduced levels. These oils (SM) are the most common now on store shelves, from what I've seen locally.
I believe someone on the board mentioned an oil supplement from CD2 that boosts the antiwear properties when added to the oil.
Also, Jason, if TALL PAUL sees this, he's spoken about an additive out from Valvoline, I beleive, that is a very good product.
I am sure if TP sees this ASAP, he will give you and others the details.
Ed
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Laughing Gas
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 781
Likes: 18
From: East Texas
Now that you mention it, I do remember Tall Paul mentioning something from Valvoline along the lines of Synpower additive. But I could be wrong. Seems like he mentioned it was getting hard to find.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
It is a high performance "built" engine that is likely to see problems. Something like a 300 I-6 probably wont. Cam lift and profile, valve springs and operating rpms are the variables. In aircraft engines, only certain Lycomings have a probem with tappet wear and pitting using non-detergent aviation oil. Those specific engines need an additve (TCP) that works in a similar way to ZDDP. The rest of the fleet dont seem to have a problem.
All the dire predictions of cylinder head valve recession in older engines when they went to unleaded gasoline only came true for those doing heavy work, like towing or racing.
Jim
All the dire predictions of cylinder head valve recession in older engines when they went to unleaded gasoline only came true for those doing heavy work, like towing or racing.
Jim
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
I would still seriously consider an oil like Delo or Rotella, but you are in WI, so you would need the synthetic version for winter. I have no specific knowlege as to which Ford engines have high valvetrain loading and which ones dont.
Jim
Jim
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,860
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From: Metro Detroit (Redford)
Some high mileage oils have higher zddp. I contacted Citgo last August and they told me the Ultralife 10w30 has 1150 ppm zinc and 1050 ppm phosphorus. Most SM oil is around 750 ppm or so.
Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment has around 1700 ppm zinc
Big Lots is selling off two CD2 products ($1 to $2 a pint) that I did new oil analysis on (I stocked up on both):
CD2 Street Legal High Performance Oil Boost: 4800 ppm zinc
CD2 75000 mile additive: 4000 ppm zinc
Depending on where you live, you may find 10w30 diesel oil. I can get Motorcraft dual rated diesel in 10w30 quarts at Murrays.
All that said, I also understand that the flat tappet cam wear problem is mainly in high performance applications where there is high spring pressure on the valves or high lift and that your average light truck is fine with SM oil. Still, I like the idea of a couple hundred ppm boost in zinc.
Ha ha, I am running a load of 2000 ppm zinc oil now, primarily to extend the OCI. I just hit 7000 miles on it with boosted Durablend 10w40. 5000 mile UOA was fine, so I kept going. Will get another UOA at 9 or 10K. This is overkill and I don't plan to make a habit of it. I used a pcmo additive that was given to me which has 21000 ppm zinc (makes GM EOS look wimpy).
Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment has around 1700 ppm zinc
Big Lots is selling off two CD2 products ($1 to $2 a pint) that I did new oil analysis on (I stocked up on both):
CD2 Street Legal High Performance Oil Boost: 4800 ppm zinc
CD2 75000 mile additive: 4000 ppm zinc
Depending on where you live, you may find 10w30 diesel oil. I can get Motorcraft dual rated diesel in 10w30 quarts at Murrays.
All that said, I also understand that the flat tappet cam wear problem is mainly in high performance applications where there is high spring pressure on the valves or high lift and that your average light truck is fine with SM oil. Still, I like the idea of a couple hundred ppm boost in zinc.
Ha ha, I am running a load of 2000 ppm zinc oil now, primarily to extend the OCI. I just hit 7000 miles on it with boosted Durablend 10w40. 5000 mile UOA was fine, so I kept going. Will get another UOA at 9 or 10K. This is overkill and I don't plan to make a habit of it. I used a pcmo additive that was given to me which has 21000 ppm zinc (makes GM EOS look wimpy).
Last edited by TallPaul; Feb 7, 2007 at 11:58 AM.
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,899
Likes: 2
From: Lynnwood, WA
Originally Posted by TallPaul
Big Lots is selling off two CD2 products ($1 to $2 a pint) that I did new oil analysis on (I stocked up on both):
CD2 Street Legal High Performance Oil Boost: 4800 ppm zinc
CD2 75000 mile additive: 4000 ppm zinc
CD2 Street Legal High Performance Oil Boost: 4800 ppm zinc
CD2 75000 mile additive: 4000 ppm zinc
TIA
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2005
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OK so i can use any gasolinse oil that has a higher Zinc level than 1500 PPm, or a diesel oil like a 10w 30. You can just read this amount on the carton or do i have to get it tested. It makes me nervous dumping diesel oil into a gasser.