Headers getting red hot on FE
FE "Freakin Expensive"
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,461
Likes: 4
From: Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Seems to me the problem is a little deeper that what we see at the surface... IE, ground up lifter bottoms, that were run thru the motor, and the dizzt shouldnt be hard to turn at all.. and if the new cam took out Intake lobes on 3,4, and 6...that would make those cylinders run hot..as not getting fuel into them for cooling.... This is a really tuff call not beind able to hear the motor run...
Like Mentioned above..I believe I would pull some caps and see how far the lifter trash went thru the motor.. JMO..
RJ
Like Mentioned above..I believe I would pull some caps and see how far the lifter trash went thru the motor.. JMO..
RJ
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,600
Likes: 4
From: Iowa
I think I know why it's chewing up lifters.
In recent years, the API has reduced a critical additive for flat tappet cams. This additive, Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate (or ZDDP), is necessary to prevent wear between the cam lobes and the lifters. Particularly when agressive aftermarket cams are used.
The new API rating, "SM" has the lowest limits for ZDDP they've ever been. This is bad news for people with new aftermarket flat tappet cams. The Mobil Clean 5000 is SM rated. The reason for the lower limits is to protect the catylitic converters in newer vehicles, so the OEM can warranty them longer. Newer engines have rollerized valvetrains anyway, so they can get by with the lower limit. Your FE cannot.
I think this is your problem. Even when the right procedure is followed, a cam can go flat using this oil.
I'd start taking it apart. I'd bet you've got some damaged lobes and / or lifters.
The correct oil would be one that is diesel rated (CI-4 or better), or a racing oil like some Valvoline VR-1 oils. If in doubt ask. But at this point, I'd start the teardown. Sorry for the bad news.
In recent years, the API has reduced a critical additive for flat tappet cams. This additive, Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate (or ZDDP), is necessary to prevent wear between the cam lobes and the lifters. Particularly when agressive aftermarket cams are used.
The new API rating, "SM" has the lowest limits for ZDDP they've ever been. This is bad news for people with new aftermarket flat tappet cams. The Mobil Clean 5000 is SM rated. The reason for the lower limits is to protect the catylitic converters in newer vehicles, so the OEM can warranty them longer. Newer engines have rollerized valvetrains anyway, so they can get by with the lower limit. Your FE cannot.
I think this is your problem. Even when the right procedure is followed, a cam can go flat using this oil.
I'd start taking it apart. I'd bet you've got some damaged lobes and / or lifters.
The correct oil would be one that is diesel rated (CI-4 or better), or a racing oil like some Valvoline VR-1 oils. If in doubt ask. But at this point, I'd start the teardown. Sorry for the bad news.
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: Newbury Park Ca.
Check the exhaust rocker setting on the cylinders that glow red at the header. The compression test may not show an over adjusted rocker, no oil pressure to pump lifters up, and a tight exhaust rocker could be holding the valve open during the firing stroke. (mine are not adjustable, but his are), Also, is it possible to run an FE cross wired? Seems like that could do it as well.........aMP
FE "Freakin Expensive"
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,461
Likes: 4
From: Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Well if it were 3 exhaust valves holding open on a power stroke the motor wouldnt even run on 5 running cylinders.....and crossing plug wires dont have me concerned as lifter trash in the engine....
RJ
RJ
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: Newbury Park Ca.
Originally Posted by RapidRuss
Well if it were 3 exhaust valves holding open on a power stroke the motor wouldnt even run on 5 running cylinders.....and crossing plug wires dont have me concerned as lifter trash in the engine....
RJ
RJ
Thread Starter
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New User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11
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tonight i ran through the lifter setting sequence again this time i set the intake when the exhaust valve started to lift about a third of the way, then set the exhaust when the intake was almost closed. soem of the lifters from intial settings were different but not by much 1/4 turn maybe on a few that is all. I also set the timing to about 6 deg advanced from 12 deg and turned up the air fuel mixture screws to richen the mixture , i also checked the oil for metal shavings, in the new oil and found none.. I then started the engine up and started right up idled and headers are still getting a little hot, this time same cylinder #4, and then new cylinders # 5 and #8 got alittle hot, not as bad as the first time, no lifter tick that i noticed, even checked with a small garden hose above each rocker.. the only thing i can think it might be is the carburator, tommorrow night i will put a edelbrock carb on it.. and perform cylinder leak tests.
Thread Starter
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New User
Joined: Oct 2006
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I also cleaned up the distributor and lubed it up, spins freely now. the headers lost some of the red glow when i revved up the engine a little but then started to pop a little when back down to idle. thanks for all the help
FE "Freakin Expensive"
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,461
Likes: 4
From: Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Originally Posted by aMoneypit
Sure it would run, not well but run. And exactly how do you propose the crap in the engine is causing the headers to glow red hot? I thought his question was about glowing headers. So, that is why I asked about the plug wires. I know my FE will run with #7 and #8 crossed. Not well, but run. I fail to see how ignition timing would cause 3 out of 8 cylinders to run that hot in the exhaust. The idea about the intake leaking is also possible. A simple ether or wd test could check that. I also question the valve springs, as the flat lobes and worn lifters could be victims of spring pressure, and/or over tightened rockers. .......aMP
And BTW at least 2 cylinder's always run leaner than the rest even on a well tuned engine using an intake manifold...and if your on the verge of running all the cylinder lean to start with I think your gonna run the Leanest 2 Real lean..and we all know what a lean condition does!!
But Professor, I'll let you explain it too the class..the floor is all your!
As I am just a student myself and am just learning how these Old motors work... I'am Taking notes...
RJ
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Senior User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 162
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From: Newbury Park Ca.
Well lets see here. He messed with the valve adjustment and the hottest cylinders changed location on 2 out of 3 cylinders, and the previous lifter noise seems to have quieted down. And that was after the timing was backed down 6 degrees. I'm wondering about his timing marks and method of setting it. IMO, late timing = more exhaust heat due to unburned fuel in the exhaust system. Where was it popping when you brought it back to an idle? Intake or exhaust? I think you may still have some valve train issues, lobes going away??? and/or guides that are binding valves that are opening further with the new cam?? As mentioned above, this is tough without being able to hear the engine run. I think the difference in location excludes any intake leaks. But, how about valve travel? Have you watched all the rockers work, and are all about equal in valve opening? Have you made any primary coil wiring changes that could cause a weak spark?...............Russ, I fail to see where your sarcasum is of any help related to his problems. aMP
no soda 
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: Newbury Park Ca.
Real Butter, or the diet stuff? And the only redhots are the tubes coming out from his cylinder heads. Must be intermission...........
I'm just throwing stuff out there, and from this distance the chances of throwing strikes everytime are slim. The results obtained by messing with the valves seems to point in that direction. Changed the adjustment and the hot tubes changed location.
If the timing was that far off wouldn't all the tubes be equally hot? If the cam timing was off, wouldn't all the tubes be hot? Has to be something cylinder specific, and that something moved to other cylinders............aMP
I'm just throwing stuff out there, and from this distance the chances of throwing strikes everytime are slim. The results obtained by messing with the valves seems to point in that direction. Changed the adjustment and the hot tubes changed location.
If the timing was that far off wouldn't all the tubes be equally hot? If the cam timing was off, wouldn't all the tubes be hot? Has to be something cylinder specific, and that something moved to other cylinders............aMP
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,600
Likes: 4
From: Iowa
Well lets rethink this here for a minute, and correct me if I'm wrong in any of my observations:
1. It's only doing it on some cylinders.
2. He's running inadequate oil, as I pointed out before.
3. A cam has caused problems before.
4. When he adjusted valves some changed.
Now then, what could only affect certain cylinders? Distributor, timing related? Not likely. It would affect all or none. Fuel mixture? Maybe, but fuel distribution would have to be really bad to make some header tubes glow and some not. Valve adjustment? Again maybe, but he would have to be inconsistant with his adjustment procedure to cause the problem only on certain cylinders.
So what are we left with? Incorrect valve lift/timing caused by a cam wiping lobes, caused by inadequate oil. It's the only thing that I can see that fits.
1. It's only doing it on some cylinders.
2. He's running inadequate oil, as I pointed out before.
3. A cam has caused problems before.
4. When he adjusted valves some changed.
Now then, what could only affect certain cylinders? Distributor, timing related? Not likely. It would affect all or none. Fuel mixture? Maybe, but fuel distribution would have to be really bad to make some header tubes glow and some not. Valve adjustment? Again maybe, but he would have to be inconsistant with his adjustment procedure to cause the problem only on certain cylinders.
So what are we left with? Incorrect valve lift/timing caused by a cam wiping lobes, caused by inadequate oil. It's the only thing that I can see that fits.
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: Newbury Park Ca.
I agree, it has to be in the valve train. Either cam/lifter problems as you stated, or inconsistant adjustment procedure. I would suggest he use the old standard TDC/ 90 degree valve setting procedure. At least that method allows you to go back to exactly where the valves were set last time, and see if anything has changed. The IC/EO, or which ever way it is, is a real easy way to screw up. Before you bash me for that, there is obviously something wrong with what has been done, and the 90* way is very simple to follow with less chance of error or confusion......aMP
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,574
Likes: 4
From: Golden, CO
Valves make sense now that I think about it. aMP, Russ, do you realize you are sort of agreeing about the exhaust valve having the lash too tight? I used to have a small (400cc) motorcycle that I would tune for a highway trip: Tinker with the lash (within specs), the dwell and timing. Those small changes made a difference I could feel in town and on the road.
Chris, don't take it personal when we talk about your set-up. I can't check lash or time the valves without going through it at least 3 or 4 times. I usually figure out I had it nailed the first try, but it still takes 4 tries before I'm OK with my work. I just can't get enough practice. LOL
Did you happen to check compression again?
Chris, don't take it personal when we talk about your set-up. I can't check lash or time the valves without going through it at least 3 or 4 times. I usually figure out I had it nailed the first try, but it still takes 4 tries before I'm OK with my work. I just can't get enough practice. LOL
Did you happen to check compression again?
FE "Freakin Expensive"
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,461
Likes: 4
From: Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Oh yeah know Doubt...Thats why I said at the first to just to Pull it down...Because of the Lifter and lobe trash in there....I just wonder now if the motor was pull apart and flushed everytime it woped out a cam before??
If it hasnt ?? I dont know that i would want to see the rod and main bearings! LOL..
RJ
If it hasnt ?? I dont know that i would want to see the rod and main bearings! LOL..
RJ