Crimping wire
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Milky Way Galaxy
Technically Netfly you're right, dielectric grease is an insulator, but once you crimp down on the connector you make metal2metal contact by squeezing the grease out from between the metal contact points, while still leaving the grease around the connection to help prevent corrosion.
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
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Crimping with a dielectric grease is best. The dielectric grease seals out moisture and helps prevent corrosion. Crimping provides the pressure to the connection that makes good contact and actually causes metal to flow. A good tool is required to do that, cheap ones will not. A pair of pliers or side cutters will not make the metal flow properly either. I have seen a number of people try that tho. 
Wire nuts are not made for high vibration applications and don't provide a high amount of pressure to the connection that makes metal flow. Wire nuts are not made for low voltage DC connections. They are designed for high voltage AC connections.
Wire nuts are not made for high vibration applications and don't provide a high amount of pressure to the connection that makes metal flow. Wire nuts are not made for low voltage DC connections. They are designed for high voltage AC connections.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Milky Way Galaxy
I should probably mention that as good as dielectric grease is, I stopped using it in favor of DeoxIT (http://www.caig.com/). It works just as good (some say better, I have no proof of that) as the grease, but you can get it in a pen dispenser that's a whole lot less messy than grease. Which for me, and everything that I come in contact with, is a good thing.
Posting Legend
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Ford went back and forth several times in TSBs recommending special compounds then S-grease then special... I don't think they found any advantage except for the fact that people often had silicone dielectric grease and were more likely to use it.
Elder User
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White lithium grease would be cheaper and do about as much to prevent corrosion as silicone grease, but I wouldn’t apply it before you make the connection. The advantage to silicone is its insulation from high voltage arcing for applications like ignition & plug wires. As grease goes anti-seize compound is probably the thickest, will stay put the longest and is conductive if you want that. For open wires if you want an insulator more durable than white lithium try GE RTV 162 silicone rubber. It’s a bit more expensive than silicone grease but will stay put and it’s made for wires unlike most silicone rubber were the curing agent is corrosive.
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=00Z651
or
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7608
BTW someone recently asked me what RTV stood for: ‘Room Temperature Vulcanization’. It’s used to describe all types of silicone. Page 38 here explains it well:
http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection/Assets/10685.pdf
EvironCon the products you mentioned look interesting. Though it’s a spray, you may like what they have here too, see Bullfrog cleaner:
http://www.action-electronics.com/cleaners.htm
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=00Z651
or
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7608
BTW someone recently asked me what RTV stood for: ‘Room Temperature Vulcanization’. It’s used to describe all types of silicone. Page 38 here explains it well:
http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection/Assets/10685.pdf
EvironCon the products you mentioned look interesting. Though it’s a spray, you may like what they have here too, see Bullfrog cleaner:
http://www.action-electronics.com/cleaners.htm
Last edited by Netfly; Jan 4, 2007 at 05:15 PM.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Milky Way Galaxy
I use the pen version (http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1607/.f?sc=2&category=188) of DeoxIT. I'm already known for making a mess and a spray version of anything would just amplify that reputation.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Eastern Ohio
I use a product called a scotchlok at work it is made by 3M it is already filled with the silicone and there is no need to strip the wires first, just shove them in and crimp. They make them to hold 2-3 wires together at a time and will not loosen. Great product I thik you can get them at Lowes.
Elder User
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I'm a fan of a good wire stripper and electrical tape or butt end crimps (cause they are quick). Maybe solder depending where and what. I've used scotchlok with poor results. Either the cheap metal peg in the crimp oxidizes the copper wire or repeated stress on the wire causes it to break at the crimp. I guess the added silicone will help the oxidation problem but if you notice it crimps a smaller cross section of wire compared to a regular crimp. I’d only use it for something on a temporary basis.
I recently started using a spring loaded style stripper/crimper and I’m surprised how much faster and better it strips wires. Now I’m kicking myself for not getting one sooner.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D900031&N=70 0+4294925139+4294925131+115&autoview=sku
I recently started using a spring loaded style stripper/crimper and I’m surprised how much faster and better it strips wires. Now I’m kicking myself for not getting one sooner.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D900031&N=70 0+4294925139+4294925131+115&autoview=sku
Last edited by Netfly; Jan 4, 2007 at 10:48 PM.
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Posting Legend
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Silicon dielectric grease works a lot better than white lithium. It also can sit in the toolbox for years without going bad. Those silicon products are great for mass assembly or assy lines.
Scotchlocks do seem to break a lot of wires even with the silicon dielectric. They may be OK for use in buildings but the high vibration in an auto seems to destroy wires. They also seem to have a very small contact patch.
Scotchlocks do seem to break a lot of wires even with the silicon dielectric. They may be OK for use in buildings but the high vibration in an auto seems to destroy wires. They also seem to have a very small contact patch.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Blue Hill Township
Originally Posted by Torque1st
Wire nuts are not made for low voltage DC connections. They are designed for high voltage AC connections.
Elder User
Joined: Jul 2004
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Wire nuts arn't made for use in a car. They're used on stationary wiring that is not going to take the vibration of a vehicle. Electrical tape is better. As for a/c or d/c or high or low voltage, the wire nut could certainly handle anything the tape or crimp will electrically, but they don't fully cover the exposed wires. There is always one side open. Wire nuts also tend to pull apart too easily on soft multi strand car wiring.
Posting Legend
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Sorry, I don't subscribe to threads, -way to many. Netfly is correct. When installing fire and security systems my old company (major telecom) would not use wire nuts per their testing. They specified crimps for all field connections or IDC for mass terminations. Vibration is the biggest problem and stranded wire connection just don't hold together properly with common wire nuts. High voltage AC systems can punch thru oxides that form between conductors but low voltage DC can't. This punching thru action is also a leading contributor to structure fires and is still under study. Many jurisdictions and applications will not allow wire nuts per their own testing. Wire nuts were designed for solid wire connection in line voltage AC electrical systems. The manufacturers push them hard for ease of making connections. From what I have read we may someday see a recall or inspection programs instituted like the old aluminum wire fiasco.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Blue Hill Township
This is from my dad who has been in the field for 25+ years:
Sounds plausible. I would like to know his sources to investigate it myself. I did look at a wire nut box and found it is UL-listed for copper-to-copper only, solid and/or stranded conductors.
He is correct that telecom companies use crimp or Insulation Displacement Connectors (punchblocks) for their splices, but those wires are so small that wire nuts are impractical. You have to pre-twist the wires and then fold them over in order to get a wire nut to bite. Then you have to consider the caliber of technician using the wire nut. There are also space issues – a maggot takes considerably less room than the same quantity of wire nuts. As far as crimp connectors for fire alarm work – if it is true fire alarm (not burg-panel fire alarm) he used minimum 18 AWG solid FPL(P) cable. I do not know of any UL-listed crimp-type connectors rated for solid wire. Any fire alarm spec I have seen that rejects wire nuts will specify terminal strips for terminations. A crimp connector would actually be worse than a wire nut.
He is also correct that oxides will form between conductors. That can take decades when used in a dry location. Which, coincidently, is where the wire nut is UL-listed for use. If wet or damp conditions are expected, or where a more permanent connection is desired, you solder the wires and then use the wire nut for insulation purposes. Can you imagine how much of a cost increase there would be in electrical installations if wire nuts were not permitted?
I cannot dismiss his assertions. The only thing I can go on is my 25+ years of experience. I have never heard of a structure fire traced to wire nuts being used. Also, when properly used, I have seen no loss of conductivity in any of my systems due to wire nuts. This does not mean that it cannot occur; it simply means that I have not seen it.
He is correct that telecom companies use crimp or Insulation Displacement Connectors (punchblocks) for their splices, but those wires are so small that wire nuts are impractical. You have to pre-twist the wires and then fold them over in order to get a wire nut to bite. Then you have to consider the caliber of technician using the wire nut. There are also space issues – a maggot takes considerably less room than the same quantity of wire nuts. As far as crimp connectors for fire alarm work – if it is true fire alarm (not burg-panel fire alarm) he used minimum 18 AWG solid FPL(P) cable. I do not know of any UL-listed crimp-type connectors rated for solid wire. Any fire alarm spec I have seen that rejects wire nuts will specify terminal strips for terminations. A crimp connector would actually be worse than a wire nut.
He is also correct that oxides will form between conductors. That can take decades when used in a dry location. Which, coincidently, is where the wire nut is UL-listed for use. If wet or damp conditions are expected, or where a more permanent connection is desired, you solder the wires and then use the wire nut for insulation purposes. Can you imagine how much of a cost increase there would be in electrical installations if wire nuts were not permitted?
I cannot dismiss his assertions. The only thing I can go on is my 25+ years of experience. I have never heard of a structure fire traced to wire nuts being used. Also, when properly used, I have seen no loss of conductivity in any of my systems due to wire nuts. This does not mean that it cannot occur; it simply means that I have not seen it.