i am trying new class in mud racing and want to keep costs low to feel out class to see if it is worth running. i need to get 500...or better hp out of a 460 (also have 1973 429 if better to use) but i need it with low cost...possible??? any input appreciated thx

 

I'm no engine guru but that sounds like a TALL order to me. On the other hand, maybe what you and I call "low cost" are not the same thing. I would imagine that it would take quite a bit to get this much hp from a 460 engine. Hmmm... dual quads + headers + hot cam + ignition or maybe a super-charger would do it. Most of this would not be cheap, though.

I have heard of "stroker kits" that are available for increasing the 460s displacement to around 540 CID.
Some of the guys doing this are into racing of various kinds but I would be surprised if they aren't doing more to their engines than just this.

Another thought is that if this kind of racing is done at low to medium speed, engine torque at a particular RPM might be a lot more important to you than pure hp. When towing, for example, 500 ft-lbs at 2000-2500 rpm can be a LOT more useful than 500 hp at 5500-6000 rpm.

Ed

 

I built a 69 429 and used the C9VE heads and converted them to a "counterfeit Cobrajet" head using using 2.25 and 1.75 stainless steel valves with a good porting and hard seats and a set of "port plates" to raise the floor of the exhaust port up to where it will flow better and put out more torque. I used a good midrange cam from Cam Dynamics, Motorsport roller rockers, Doug Thorley tri-y headers Edelbrock dual plane manifold, Edelbrock 750 carb. I used a 460 crank and pistons and decked the block to zero deck. and Fel-Pro Printo-seal Headgaskets. The pistons were flycut to prevent disaster and the finished compression was 11.0:1 with a .040 over bore I think it came out to 468 cubes. We put it on a chassis dyno and the guy figured about 465 hp. It's in a 86 f-150 supercab that used to have the 5.8 HO in it. I bought an engine conversion kit from L&L products in Texas to convert all my accessories off the front of the 351 to the 460 and motor mounts they guaranteed for life. I have about 80k on the engine now and the mounts are still like new with a LOT of hard launches on them.This is a real sleeper around town and I have "whipped"a lot of Chevy 454 guys with it. It is a fairly mild engine for around town but the gas mileage sucks! I have to use Moroso octane booster and use a mix of pumpgas and av gas to keep it from pinging up here at 4500 feet. I would love to find a good used Edelbrock "Varijection" water injection set-up like I used on a 11.0:1 428 fe in a 75 truck.It did the trick on saving the engine from detonation, but they don't make 'em any more. All in all I don't think I was to far from 500 horses if I would have used better pistons and a bigger carb etc. etc. but then I would have had to pull a gas station around with me to drive it! 460man

 

Interesting reply, BigBlueOvalMan, and power of that magnitude would not surprise me. Heck, the rail boys can get 2000 hp from a 460 class engine. Not that they can run more than a couple of 1/4 mile races, of course.

Still, the operative term in the earlier post was how to do all this "at low cost". Depending upon that definition, and we all have our own version of that, getting 500 hp from an engine can be difficult. Anytime one gets more than a hp per cube, things need to be pretty much optimized and that costs money. I don't know... maybe the original poster wouldn't even blink at throwing $5000 into an engine... but I sure would.

Anyway, my main point is that engines are often built for top-end hp or for low end torque. I prefer a mid-range solution that puts out enough hp and torque in the desired rpm range to get the job done. It's also good if there is a fair amount of street driveability involved unless the engine in question will be used only for racing.

Ed

 

i hear ya ed lol, when i say cheap...i mean cheap. we are only putting about $3000 in the whole truck, but truck and chassis are all parts we have layin around, so realistically speaking we probably will have about $2000 to throw at motor, and i know guys, that aint much when looking for that kind of power, just figured i would throw it on here and see if somebody got that kind of power cheap. thanks for the info guys, believe me a set of aluminum scj heads are lookin really good, but at $1000 a head....ouch lol

 

one more thing ed, race engine only, from dead stop to 300 feet as fast as it can....

 

If you can find some DOVE or C9 heads you will be way ahead from the start. I had an old school hot rod article from Hot Rod on a very easy 500 hp 460.

They used DOVE heads (with CJ valves and adjustable valve train), Offenhauser Port-O-Sonic intake, 800 cfm Holley DP, flat-tops (I think they were TRW pop ups with the domes milled off), and I believe it was a 292 Comp Cam. They were in the 520 range with an 850 and the power was unbelivable at mid range. Always wanted to do that engine but I think it might break your budget.

Kenny

 

There is a ton of information on this in the Big Block V8 - 385 series forum here. One of the users here, monsterbaby, runs a 460 stroked to 514 (I believe) in a ranger and races it. He would be the guy to talk to.

 

OK, fordman247365, that clears some things up for me. Race only means that there will not be any street driveability issues.

$2000 to spend means that there are some things that can be done but not others. My thoughts on this would be to replace the engine bearings and seals, get a BIG carb, headers, a good mid-range cam/lifters/springs, a good valve job, a set of pistons that will raise the compression ratio to 10.5-11:1, and a little head porting. That should be do-able for this amount of jingle, especially if you can do most of the installation work. Not sure if this would develop your goal of 500 hp or not but it might be about as close as you can come for the money and it should be a very strong engine.

Ed

 

how much do superchargers run for these things?

 

Haven't bought one of these but at a guess... $3000 or so.

I seem to remember a fellow who quoted that amount for a supercharger he'd added
to his 6.9L diesel. Could be higher than that now. This was a year or so ago.

Ed

 

Close, it's actually a 528cid, and the heads alone would break his budget ($2200 unported), heck carb and intake was over $1500.

Not to be mean but wrong answer when it comes to mud racing, I leave the line at over 5000rpm, shift at 7400 and cross the finish line in third gear pushing the 8000rpm rev limiter. It's a very RPM intensive, traction limited sport, and low rpm motors do not compete at all.

Now to the original question, well good luck is about the most I can say.
$2000 will get you a decent stock build. When someone asks me to build an engine first question is how fast can you afford to go. Someone mentioned the DOVE or earlier heads, and if you can run race gas, thats a good start. Next a set of flat top pistons getting your compression into the 12s, zero deck the block, if you can afford it a set of Hbeam rods (for later upgrades and more rpms) and balance it, do NOT skip this step or you will not live through a season. Your going to need a stall converter I recommend getting yourself into at least the 3000rpm range, and a cam with a power band running 2500-6500rpm(if you don't opt for the Hbeams, other wise look for more rpms) and a victor intake with a 825 or 850 cfm carb. convert the heads to 7/16 studs and guide plates (use 3/8" pushrods) and a good set of roller rockers. Solid cam is going to be your best choice unless you can come up with the money and go roller. Good ignition system, IE msd 6AL (definatly get one with a limiter trust me), MSD dist and a hot coil (you will need it with the race gas). intake, carb, and ignition will eat up half your budget.

 

Hey, Monsterbaby:

Thanks for posting a knowledgeable post on mud racing. As you can see from most of the comments here, none of us are mud racers and one wants to be one. No offense intended or taken.

I had no idea that this kind of racing was done at such high rpms. Sounds as if the goal is not to get through the bog but to throw as much of it as far as possible! ;-)

Perhaps it is the idea of budget and racing that don't really come together? In any case, to be competitive at this looks to be an expensive hobby.

My Dad was into boats. He referred to a boat as "a hole in the water that you dump money into". Perhaps a racing vehicle is a "hole in the driveway that you dump money into"?

Ed

 

i race street stock now and have for just shy of 20 yrs. just going to bigger class cuz to tell the truth, i am sick of a quiet truck lol. this thing aint gonna be cheap, but like anything else, gotta start with what you got and build from there, a little at a time, hopefully i can line up a few more sponsors for this mod and then we can get the parts we are looking for, and like monster said, if you aint got rpm...you aint got ....crap. i run 6000 rpm out of my street stock, and it is basically stock motor. weird sport where races are won and lost usually in the first 60 ft. and yes ed it is a very costly sport, i have dumped nearly $8,000 in my street stock over the years, but mud gets in your blood lol

 

Fordman, what class are you looking to move up too? My truck is modified and open class truck and I have almost $12k in the motor, and it's not enough going for a bigger motor just don't think I will get it built for this year (but I am trying).
My best advice would be to build a stout bottom end, with good rods and pistons (as light forged piston as you can get, stay away from speedpro, not a bad piston just usually pretty heavy) SRP, and Diamond racing make a decent priced forged piston that would be good for you. Also get good quality damper and flexplate (I assume your running an auto) and then pay to have it balanced by a good shop it's worth the money like I said before. The bottom end of the motor is the important part because if you don't have it bullet proof all the stuff you do in the valve train and top end of the engine won't matter.
And yes it does get in your blood I started out a long time ago with a farm stock, then when I got back into it I went to a superstock truck, now I run modified and compete in open/outlaw class it never stops