Cleaning out Plastic Barrels
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Senior User
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Dodgeville WI
Cleaning out Plastic Barrels
I recently aquired 4 30 Gallon Plastic Barrels that had held Car Washing soap for a automatic Car Wash. I want to add these into my Radiant Heating system as a Heat Storage tanks. My Question is how to clean out the reside soap from the barrels?
I am thinking to just flush them with water for 5 minutes or so and call it good. They have 2 1 1/2" threaded holes on one end so just gonna reduce them down to the 3/4 Piping size that my Radiant system is runningn on. I am planning on just hooking 1 barrel into the system this weekend and setting my water temp to 180 "Most the time my system runs 140-160" and watch the barrel for signs of stress due to the heat and making sure that the barrels can survie holding water at that temp before I make a rack and store the others and add them to the system.
Reason for doing this is I run a wood boiler and I need more water capacity for heat storage so I can store Heat overnight to keep the house warm.
Sublime out
I am thinking to just flush them with water for 5 minutes or so and call it good. They have 2 1 1/2" threaded holes on one end so just gonna reduce them down to the 3/4 Piping size that my Radiant system is runningn on. I am planning on just hooking 1 barrel into the system this weekend and setting my water temp to 180 "Most the time my system runs 140-160" and watch the barrel for signs of stress due to the heat and making sure that the barrels can survie holding water at that temp before I make a rack and store the others and add them to the system.
Reason for doing this is I run a wood boiler and I need more water capacity for heat storage so I can store Heat overnight to keep the house warm.
Sublime out
Logistics Pro
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Lancaster County PA
I think I remember from high school that soap is a "base", that is has a pH of greater than 7. I think if you rinsed it with water once or twice, then with a water/white vinegar solution (slightly acidic) youd remove all traces of the soap.
Of course, if your water pH is already slightly acidic, which is not unusual, that would do the trick.
But really, I don't think ist is worth any extra effort beyond rinsing with regular water until the water leaving the barrel runs clear and w/out bubbles.
Of course, if your water pH is already slightly acidic, which is not unusual, that would do the trick.
But really, I don't think ist is worth any extra effort beyond rinsing with regular water until the water leaving the barrel runs clear and w/out bubbles.
FTE Chapter Leader
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Wayland, MI
What kind of heat loss do you think you might get from the plastic barrels? I was just thinking what a great idea that is, but if you were to wrap the barrels in that foil type bubble insulation they should retain the heat longer and be more efficient. Not sure if it would work but it might be worth the effort to try.
Toyman
Toyman
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From: Dodgeville WI
Toyman,
I dunno know on the heat loss.
as far a insulation when I get the frame work built for the barrels I was thinking to use some 2-4" sty-row-foam "sorry on spelling" and just nail that to the framing that supports the barrells. Since this is gonna be stored in the house basement any heat loss will go towards keeping the house warm.
Still in the thinking and test stage of this.
Hoping to Test 1 of the barrels that is can withstand having 180 water in it over the weekend this way I can stay close to home and check the barrel every hour or so for stress or leaks since I don't wanna end up with Water dumped all over the basement or run my Wood boiler low on water.
sublime out.
thanks again for the replies
I dunno know on the heat loss.
as far a insulation when I get the frame work built for the barrels I was thinking to use some 2-4" sty-row-foam "sorry on spelling" and just nail that to the framing that supports the barrells. Since this is gonna be stored in the house basement any heat loss will go towards keeping the house warm.
Still in the thinking and test stage of this.
Hoping to Test 1 of the barrels that is can withstand having 180 water in it over the weekend this way I can stay close to home and check the barrel every hour or so for stress or leaks since I don't wanna end up with Water dumped all over the basement or run my Wood boiler low on water.
sublime out.
thanks again for the replies
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Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Canton MI
http://www.matweb.com/reference/defl...emperature.asp
If you can find out what the plastic is, this link might be helpful for understanding the heat tolerance of the barrels short of the experiment -- just the first site that came up on a web search. My guess is that soap delivery barrels don't have any high heat requirements so you're quite right to be cautious.
The idea of a liquid level sensor and indicator light comes to mind also for the long term. Something to tell you if the water level is getting low before the boiler runs low on water.
If you can find out what the plastic is, this link might be helpful for understanding the heat tolerance of the barrels short of the experiment -- just the first site that came up on a web search. My guess is that soap delivery barrels don't have any high heat requirements so you're quite right to be cautious.
The idea of a liquid level sensor and indicator light comes to mind also for the long term. Something to tell you if the water level is getting low before the boiler runs low on water.
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2006
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You will probably run into a problem futher down the road as the heat affects the strength of the barrels. You would be better off getting a stainless steel tank built and insulate the outside of it with Polyisocyanurate insulation (Better R value that styrafoam).
Junior User
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Canton MI
Quite right, not just the short term ability but longer term degradation. Looking at the bottom of the typical delivery container (like the 5 gallon drywall buckets I'm emptying fast today), I see HDPE which is pretty low temp stuff. Now stainless, that sounds real nice from the engineering standpoint. Not sure about the $$$ though. I wonder how fiberglass does? The stuff makes a great fix for running boards for those of us with old cars in the salty north.
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Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Calgary, Canada
We used the blue 45 gallon barrels for an electroless nickel plating solution and that stuff needs to be hotter than 180º. In all the years I worked there we never changed that barrel.
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From: Dodgeville WI
I check out the bottom of the barrels and they are stamped HDPE and from checking out the link further up thread the rating is for 120 for that type of plastic. but that is also under pressure load.
I am thinking I still might test one of these out as I am only holding the water in the barrels and they are not under pressure other then the weight of the water. At worst I'll have a spectular failure of of a plastic barrel to talk about.
For when I run the test I guess I will baby sit the barrell and check it for leaking, deforming and the like. If it starts going south on me I have bypass valves set up I can drop the barrell out of the heating loop in about 20 seconds. and I have a floor sump pump handy and this way I can clean the basement while I am babysitting the barrel. The wife would really like that.
sublime out
Happy turkey day.
I am thinking I still might test one of these out as I am only holding the water in the barrels and they are not under pressure other then the weight of the water. At worst I'll have a spectular failure of of a plastic barrel to talk about.
For when I run the test I guess I will baby sit the barrell and check it for leaking, deforming and the like. If it starts going south on me I have bypass valves set up I can drop the barrell out of the heating loop in about 20 seconds. and I have a floor sump pump handy and this way I can clean the basement while I am babysitting the barrel. The wife would really like that.
sublime out
Happy turkey day.
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2004
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I don't think one barrel is going to be terribly useful to you, even if it can take the heat just fine.
30 gallons * 8 pounds per gallon * 70 degrees above ambient is 16800 BTU of storage capacity. This is about the same amount of heat you get from burning 2 pounds of white oak (or similar hardwood).
If you had all 4 barrels hooked up, then you'd have an amount of heat storage equal to 8 pounds of hardwood firewood. At 32 pounds per cubic foot, this amounts to 0.25 cubic foot of firewood, or a piece of split oak 4 inches by 4 inches by 24 inches.
Getting storage equal to burning one more stick of firewood is not going to make the house stay warm all night. It'll help, yes, but not very much. You need a much bigger storage unit than you propose.
Thermal energy storage does works effectively. Russian stoves are one example. Something close to what you propose is the "hahsa stove". But these arrangements use the equivalent of 3000+ gallons of water to provide useful energy storage, not a mere 120 gallons.
30 gallons * 8 pounds per gallon * 70 degrees above ambient is 16800 BTU of storage capacity. This is about the same amount of heat you get from burning 2 pounds of white oak (or similar hardwood).
If you had all 4 barrels hooked up, then you'd have an amount of heat storage equal to 8 pounds of hardwood firewood. At 32 pounds per cubic foot, this amounts to 0.25 cubic foot of firewood, or a piece of split oak 4 inches by 4 inches by 24 inches.
Getting storage equal to burning one more stick of firewood is not going to make the house stay warm all night. It'll help, yes, but not very much. You need a much bigger storage unit than you propose.
Thermal energy storage does works effectively. Russian stoves are one example. Something close to what you propose is the "hahsa stove". But these arrangements use the equivalent of 3000+ gallons of water to provide useful energy storage, not a mere 120 gallons.
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From: Dodgeville WI
Thanks for all your thoughts on this.
Still havent had time to test this out when the weather is this nice 45 degress or so I have to spend time cutting fire wood than tweaking my system. I can due that when it is cold and rainy.
I should be out cutting fire wood right now But I have to finish a PC build for a neighbors computer. Stupid windows updates take forever to download and install.
sublime out.
Still havent had time to test this out when the weather is this nice 45 degress or so I have to spend time cutting fire wood than tweaking my system. I can due that when it is cold and rainy.
I should be out cutting fire wood right now But I have to finish a PC build for a neighbors computer. Stupid windows updates take forever to download and install.
sublime out.
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: New Jersey
Plastic barrels generally is not a good insulator.
Why not acquire several burnt out hot water heaters, and heat the water with the wood stove before pumping into the hot water heaters, for storage. Hot water heaters are insulated, therefore the water would retain hotter longer?
If you really want to use the plastic barrels, maybe wrapping them in fiberglass insulation and putting them into a sealed enclosure would allow more heat retention in the water.
Why not acquire several burnt out hot water heaters, and heat the water with the wood stove before pumping into the hot water heaters, for storage. Hot water heaters are insulated, therefore the water would retain hotter longer?
If you really want to use the plastic barrels, maybe wrapping them in fiberglass insulation and putting them into a sealed enclosure would allow more heat retention in the water.
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From: Dodgeville WI
Well I did a temp hook up of 1 barrell and after 10 minutes of 140 water the barrel was really starting to show sign of stress that both the input pipe and output pipe had distorted about 10degrees from initial fill up "due to Warpage of Plastic". So after that I put a nix on going any farther with testing of hotter water as I let the barrel cool back down Unhooked my Pex Lines wheeled it outside and dumped the water out.
All I lost was about 1 hour of time. Glad I tried this first before Making a Rack and cleaning out a spot to store 4 barrels and getting them all plumbed into my heating system.
sublime out.
All I lost was about 1 hour of time. Glad I tried this first before Making a Rack and cleaning out a spot to store 4 barrels and getting them all plumbed into my heating system.
sublime out.