Something M11 fans should read
#1
11-10-2002, 08:03 AM
#2
11-10-2002, 09:39 AM
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Something M11 fans should read
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 10-Nov-02 AT 10:42 AM (EST)]Carl
Thanks a bunch, VERY interesting thread. I'll be following along. Wish I knew both sides of the story. It looks like bad design on the surface though. Scary stuff, Hiedts is well respected for top shelf custom pieces. The lesson I am taking from it is you better check ANY custom IFS very frequently. I hope the guy does not drag the FEDs into it. Can you imagine a discussion on the senate floor with the topic of: Should it be illegal to put a suspension designed for a car, under a full size truck? Removal of a Ford engineered strut rod. Because it's ugly I assume? Maybe this stuff has already been to Congress, I don't know? That could end bad as it expands to steering columns, brakes etc. I have seen so many shakey projects. Ammo would not be hard to find.
'fenders
Thanks a bunch, VERY interesting thread. I'll be following along. Wish I knew both sides of the story. It looks like bad design on the surface though. Scary stuff, Hiedts is well respected for top shelf custom pieces. The lesson I am taking from it is you better check ANY custom IFS very frequently. I hope the guy does not drag the FEDs into it. Can you imagine a discussion on the senate floor with the topic of: Should it be illegal to put a suspension designed for a car, under a full size truck? Removal of a Ford engineered strut rod. Because it's ugly I assume? Maybe this stuff has already been to Congress, I don't know? That could end bad as it expands to steering columns, brakes etc. I have seen so many shakey projects. Ammo would not be hard to find.
'fenders
#3
11-10-2002, 10:22 AM
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Something M11 fans should read
thanks for posting Carl... I was just about to do it myself. someone else brought it to my attention... You can appreciate my concern.. I've just installed a Heidts crossmember !!
Me and my guru are going to look at reinforcement ideas this week for sure...
Everyone with one or considering one should keep up with this post.. this is way scary...
john
Me and my guru are going to look at reinforcement ideas this week for sure...
Everyone with one or considering one should keep up with this post.. this is way scary...
john
#4
11-10-2002, 03:54 PM
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Something M11 fans should read
John
I understand your concern and I would be looking into safety measures too. But at a later time, not yet. I would wait for the "experts" to check in on the subject. This could be an isolated incident of steel that did not meet QC standards. Ever see an idler arm tear out of the frame on a normal old car like a 70s LTD? It was once fairly common. All you have right now is a very emotional owner's side of the story. If he is telling the whole truth and no previous welding occurred, you know he will have the steel tested etc. Hiedt's is likely to be in heavy denial not matter what the truth is. This could be catastrophic for them. Most of these businesses could not possibly absorb a recall and survive if a recall turned out to be warranted.
I think worst case is the addition of a strut rod if that is possible, and periodic inspection as you should with any heavily modified vehicle. You always hear folks say what if that had happened at 70 mph! Fact is most suspension/steering total failure like this occurs at very low speed such as cutting a 90 into your driveway. I am not an expert but I am certain of this fact.
Carl, you have any clue what the car in question weighs?
'fenders
I understand your concern and I would be looking into safety measures too. But at a later time, not yet. I would wait for the "experts" to check in on the subject. This could be an isolated incident of steel that did not meet QC standards. Ever see an idler arm tear out of the frame on a normal old car like a 70s LTD? It was once fairly common. All you have right now is a very emotional owner's side of the story. If he is telling the whole truth and no previous welding occurred, you know he will have the steel tested etc. Hiedt's is likely to be in heavy denial not matter what the truth is. This could be catastrophic for them. Most of these businesses could not possibly absorb a recall and survive if a recall turned out to be warranted.
I think worst case is the addition of a strut rod if that is possible, and periodic inspection as you should with any heavily modified vehicle. You always hear folks say what if that had happened at 70 mph! Fact is most suspension/steering total failure like this occurs at very low speed such as cutting a 90 into your driveway. I am not an expert but I am certain of this fact.
Carl, you have any clue what the car in question weighs?
'fenders
#6
11-10-2002, 07:08 PM
Something M11 fans should read
Im back, been roofing all day.
The car in question is a 46 Ford coupe; no big lead sled or truck.
I know the basic subject got emotional on here a few times in the past. This is way too important and really needs a complete resolution.
Ive said before, I wouldnt even consider a M11 for my 46 truck and that was just based upon examining the design at shows. Just call it a built in alarm via my
eyes to something in the gray matter.
The Carps guy is a very high up in Toyota R&D, knows his stuff even when he comes on with his American bashing or preaching about whats wrong over here. Typical Aussie!
If any of you are on other forums, get the word out for people to check their stuff pronto.
Dewayne, thats the same forum (HAMB) that did the analysis on the Aerostar. Its got some serious engineeering talent and several havent gotten into the Heidts fray yet.
The site is a bit rough for the sensitive amongst us but I know youre a big boy and would probably feel right at home. Im a regular there.
God, I ache everywhere, getting too old for this s..t!
The car in question is a 46 Ford coupe; no big lead sled or truck.
I know the basic subject got emotional on here a few times in the past. This is way too important and really needs a complete resolution.
Ive said before, I wouldnt even consider a M11 for my 46 truck and that was just based upon examining the design at shows. Just call it a built in alarm via my
eyes to something in the gray matter.
The Carps guy is a very high up in Toyota R&D, knows his stuff even when he comes on with his American bashing or preaching about whats wrong over here. Typical Aussie!
If any of you are on other forums, get the word out for people to check their stuff pronto.
Dewayne, thats the same forum (HAMB) that did the analysis on the Aerostar. Its got some serious engineeering talent and several havent gotten into the Heidts fray yet.
The site is a bit rough for the sensitive amongst us but I know youre a big boy and would probably feel right at home. Im a regular there.
God, I ache everywhere, getting too old for this s..t!
#7
11-10-2002, 08:16 PM
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#8
11-12-2002, 01:24 PM
Join Date: Jul 1997
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Something M11 fans should read
Update on the MII failure....
Ryan the admin of the H.A.M.B. board contacted Gary Heidt asking for his input. Gary has replied, will replace the crossmember at no cost to the owner.. He still stands by his design and engineering and when you consider there are 10's of thousands of these on the road we should be seeing a lot more failures if it were an engineering problem. There's still some "he said, she said" in the commentary, but I think Gary is trying to resolve this situation amicably.
I've seen no counter response from Cosmo as of today...I'm sure we will...
Other recommendations including increased gusseting for strength and stress prevention... the post is now up to about three pages and definately worth a read even if you don't use a MII..
I'll keep mine (MII) but will add additional support/gussets if for no other reason to support my piece of mind...
John..
Ryan the admin of the H.A.M.B. board contacted Gary Heidt asking for his input. Gary has replied, will replace the crossmember at no cost to the owner.. He still stands by his design and engineering and when you consider there are 10's of thousands of these on the road we should be seeing a lot more failures if it were an engineering problem. There's still some "he said, she said" in the commentary, but I think Gary is trying to resolve this situation amicably.
I've seen no counter response from Cosmo as of today...I'm sure we will...
Other recommendations including increased gusseting for strength and stress prevention... the post is now up to about three pages and definately worth a read even if you don't use a MII..
I'll keep mine (MII) but will add additional support/gussets if for no other reason to support my piece of mind...
John..
#9
11-12-2002, 05:34 PM
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#10
11-12-2002, 07:10 PM
Join Date: Jul 1997
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Something M11 fans should read
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-Nov-02 AT 08:12 PM (EST)]DeWayne,
I've talked to a couple of serious car builders who use this stuff at speeds up to 180 mph... thrash it severely and have never had a problem with a unit that was INSTALLED CORRECTLY. Both of them read the complete thread, looked at the pics and they agree.
I think this was a case of a poorly done/maintained installation gone terribly wrong and not shoddy workmanship by Heidts. And possibly the owner (being admittedly cash strapped) looking at an opportunity. I think Heidts was done a disservice and will probably loose some business because of it.. Gary did the upright thing by replacing the unit for the guy and by claiming no responsibility or wrong doing.
I plan to add additional gussets on the vertical and horizontal planes to reinforce the rear extension of the lower crossmember. The inner and outer sleeves (that hold the control arm bolt) will be full welded to the crossmember (as full as possible on the inside)and the outer sleeve braced to the frame rail vertically.. I'm really pleased with my install but was understandably concerned until I checked with my mentors and gurus. These guys are super safety conscious and understand the geometry of the suspension and the limitations. Both said they would trust Heidts over all the others.
I think if all was known (and it never truly will be) there was some abuse and modifications that entered into the equation that put some unnecessary stresses on the components... and neglect did the rest. I feel a whole lot better about it now...
I'll post pics of the additional work after completed... we're dealing with engine mounts, oil pan clearances and such right now.. It's always more fun than you thought it would be.
later
john
I've talked to a couple of serious car builders who use this stuff at speeds up to 180 mph... thrash it severely and have never had a problem with a unit that was INSTALLED CORRECTLY. Both of them read the complete thread, looked at the pics and they agree.
I think this was a case of a poorly done/maintained installation gone terribly wrong and not shoddy workmanship by Heidts. And possibly the owner (being admittedly cash strapped) looking at an opportunity. I think Heidts was done a disservice and will probably loose some business because of it.. Gary did the upright thing by replacing the unit for the guy and by claiming no responsibility or wrong doing.
I plan to add additional gussets on the vertical and horizontal planes to reinforce the rear extension of the lower crossmember. The inner and outer sleeves (that hold the control arm bolt) will be full welded to the crossmember (as full as possible on the inside)and the outer sleeve braced to the frame rail vertically.. I'm really pleased with my install but was understandably concerned until I checked with my mentors and gurus. These guys are super safety conscious and understand the geometry of the suspension and the limitations. Both said they would trust Heidts over all the others.
I think if all was known (and it never truly will be) there was some abuse and modifications that entered into the equation that put some unnecessary stresses on the components... and neglect did the rest. I feel a whole lot better about it now...
I'll post pics of the additional work after completed... we're dealing with engine mounts, oil pan clearances and such right now.. It's always more fun than you thought it would be.
later
john
#11
11-12-2002, 09:33 PM
Post Fiend
Something M11 fans should read
John
I agree with most of what you say. If you read my first post, I was quick to admit that we only had one side of the story and did not automatically jump on the MII is bad wagon. I think that most aftermarket MIIs are up to the task and are a lot stouter than factory MII. They better be because they decided to delete the torque strut. Ford put it there for a reason so it would seem prudent to use thicker or better quality metal or gussets or something. I would think Heidts is recovering the bad crossmember for metal testing. It is not practical to have metal tested constantly but I think they will in this case. We will never hear the results though.
Your application is going to ask a lot from your MII. Our trucks are much heavier than a stang and you are using about as heavy an engine/trans combo to be found. I am sure you and the guys will make the necessary insurance moves.
Maybe the guy was looking for a buck. Maybe he was just bent because a two year old IFS disintegrated. Maybe his wife did not even tell him the complete story either. She may have hit the mother of all potholes too. They live by me and the freeze-thraw just trashes the roads up here. We may never know. He did in fact give them a chance before he went public with their name. You gotta give him that. They are partially responsible for getting famous on HAMB. I don't know what their cost is for a crossmember but I think they made a bad decision not eating one. The customer is always right and he has a computer now so more than the three people behind him in the customer service line are gonna hear him yell.
What I don't buy is this could be avoided with proper maintenance. What do you propose a guy do to keep a crossmember from busting in half? Catch it before it tears completely off. Yes probably. Maintain metal so welds don't crack. Don't think so. The lack of maintenance argument is completely ridiculous to me. I am not inclined to believe it could likely be installed so incorrectly to cause this either. These are definitely marketed to the hobbyist too. It better not be so touchy that off by a degree causes total failure. Over grinding of welds would not seem likely either unless you went completely nuts or the welds were poor in the first place. A good TIG weld should have very thorough penetration. I was under the impression The Rod Shop in Elgin, IL installed it. Maybe not but I thought I read that. They aren't rookies.
Anyway, enough of this. We'll know in a few years for sure. If it was in fact flawed, there will surely be many more, if the number of MIIs Heidts quoted is even close to correct. Heidts is not likely to come out and say "boy we sure messed up that one", although I would be more likely to purchase from them if they did. I am confident they will correct any problems if there are in fact any.
I know you are smart enough to keep an eye on things. You'll be fine. I'll be busy keeping an eye on my Volare so you aren't reading about me.
Regards
Dewayne
I agree with most of what you say. If you read my first post, I was quick to admit that we only had one side of the story and did not automatically jump on the MII is bad wagon. I think that most aftermarket MIIs are up to the task and are a lot stouter than factory MII. They better be because they decided to delete the torque strut. Ford put it there for a reason so it would seem prudent to use thicker or better quality metal or gussets or something. I would think Heidts is recovering the bad crossmember for metal testing. It is not practical to have metal tested constantly but I think they will in this case. We will never hear the results though.
Your application is going to ask a lot from your MII. Our trucks are much heavier than a stang and you are using about as heavy an engine/trans combo to be found. I am sure you and the guys will make the necessary insurance moves.
Maybe the guy was looking for a buck. Maybe he was just bent because a two year old IFS disintegrated. Maybe his wife did not even tell him the complete story either. She may have hit the mother of all potholes too. They live by me and the freeze-thraw just trashes the roads up here. We may never know. He did in fact give them a chance before he went public with their name. You gotta give him that. They are partially responsible for getting famous on HAMB. I don't know what their cost is for a crossmember but I think they made a bad decision not eating one. The customer is always right and he has a computer now so more than the three people behind him in the customer service line are gonna hear him yell.
What I don't buy is this could be avoided with proper maintenance. What do you propose a guy do to keep a crossmember from busting in half? Catch it before it tears completely off. Yes probably. Maintain metal so welds don't crack. Don't think so. The lack of maintenance argument is completely ridiculous to me. I am not inclined to believe it could likely be installed so incorrectly to cause this either. These are definitely marketed to the hobbyist too. It better not be so touchy that off by a degree causes total failure. Over grinding of welds would not seem likely either unless you went completely nuts or the welds were poor in the first place. A good TIG weld should have very thorough penetration. I was under the impression The Rod Shop in Elgin, IL installed it. Maybe not but I thought I read that. They aren't rookies.
Anyway, enough of this. We'll know in a few years for sure. If it was in fact flawed, there will surely be many more, if the number of MIIs Heidts quoted is even close to correct. Heidts is not likely to come out and say "boy we sure messed up that one", although I would be more likely to purchase from them if they did. I am confident they will correct any problems if there are in fact any.
I know you are smart enough to keep an eye on things. You'll be fine. I'll be busy keeping an eye on my Volare so you aren't reading about me.
Regards
Dewayne
#12
11-13-2002, 10:16 AM
Something M11 fans should read
i myself have been looking at the mII for my 51 f1. glad too hear about the problems also glad everyone isn't running from these designs, also glad heit's is correcting the problem and bad press. i thought heits kits were a little more money then other similar kits but good quality. should one stay away rom all the m2 kits or just add the gussets. are the other m2 kits just as good as theres ?
#13
11-13-2002, 11:02 AM
Something M11 fans should read
Wow! I am glad that I went with Fat Man Fabrications, and kept the strut rod! My crossmember is much heavier duty than the frame. I was always more concerned with the vertical forces that the lateral ones.
I have had no problems with my setup, and I finished it two years ago. My major concern is that all the weight is PULLING on the lower ball joint, instead of pushing on it.
Winford
I have had no problems with my setup, and I finished it two years ago. My major concern is that all the weight is PULLING on the lower ball joint, instead of pushing on it.
Winford
#14
11-13-2002, 05:52 PM
Post Fiend
#15
11-13-2002, 07:55 PM
Something M11 fans should read
The discussions are far from over, in fact its just starting to build up on the RRT where a couple of pro suspension engineers are getting involved.
http://www.roddingroundtable.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi
It seems its a 50-50 split about the quality of the DESIGN across about 5 forums that I look at.
Im sure Heidt had to cover his a.s on advice of his lawyer and he got a signed agreement from the customer to not persue it any further if Heidt pays for a complete replacement and labor.
Comments about some fish and dragging religion into his reply automatically means I dont trust him.
http://www.roddingroundtable.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi
It seems its a 50-50 split about the quality of the DESIGN across about 5 forums that I look at.
Im sure Heidt had to cover his a.s on advice of his lawyer and he got a signed agreement from the customer to not persue it any further if Heidt pays for a complete replacement and labor.
Comments about some fish and dragging religion into his reply automatically means I dont trust him.