What intake & headers? V10
#1
10-09-2006, 11:46 PM
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10-10-2006, 01:34 AM
#3
10-11-2006, 08:41 PM
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#5
10-13-2006, 10:59 AM
ChurchKey
If you would get a look at a 99-2004 2v V10s intake and exhaust systems then take a very close look at you 3v V10 2006 version you will see that Ford already did all this for you and that is where they got the extra Horse Power and Torque....
I doubt you can do any better with any aftermarket modifications... many have tried, Captain Charlie has the most experience with the 3v V10 and he has decided to go back to the stock set up after dropping a few thousand dollars and a LOT of dyno and track time
Best bang for the buck he got was the 4.56:1 gears and a chip tuner he had to tinker with a LOT.
The 3v V10 is a highly sophisticated machine with a computer controlled intake plenum with a variable volume vane /butterfly valve inside it to enhance flow speed and volume... seems to be real sensitive to drastic changes in the exhaust side and not care too much on the intake air filter side... your air box and filter is already full flowing and gets cold air from two directions and the paper filter is about as big as they make and not restrictive at all.
On a dyno most of the aftermarket air filter elements only show a slight increase at the higher RPMs. They provide no extra flow at any normal cruise RPM in the 1700-3200 range
If you would get a look at a 99-2004 2v V10s intake and exhaust systems then take a very close look at you 3v V10 2006 version you will see that Ford already did all this for you and that is where they got the extra Horse Power and Torque....
I doubt you can do any better with any aftermarket modifications... many have tried, Captain Charlie has the most experience with the 3v V10 and he has decided to go back to the stock set up after dropping a few thousand dollars and a LOT of dyno and track time
Best bang for the buck he got was the 4.56:1 gears and a chip tuner he had to tinker with a LOT.
The 3v V10 is a highly sophisticated machine with a computer controlled intake plenum with a variable volume vane /butterfly valve inside it to enhance flow speed and volume... seems to be real sensitive to drastic changes in the exhaust side and not care too much on the intake air filter side... your air box and filter is already full flowing and gets cold air from two directions and the paper filter is about as big as they make and not restrictive at all.
On a dyno most of the aftermarket air filter elements only show a slight increase at the higher RPMs. They provide no extra flow at any normal cruise RPM in the 1700-3200 range
#6
10-13-2006, 07:25 PM
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Thanks for your reply. IMHO the stock exhaust manifolds are basically shorty header style, thought there might be some that had 36" long primary's. The Gibson headers do not look much better to me than my stockers. My main concern is the small converters which are about the size of a cigar box. I think I will focus on head pipes & larger converters. Have already changed the system from the Y pipe connector back.
I have only looked at the intake sysem externally, thought there might be some development that has already been done to enhance its operation. More on this once I get into it.
Have a Troyer XCAL 2 programer with 3 programs. One for regular fuel, one for premium fuel towing & one for premium fuel performance. IMHO it is not as effective & does not make as much of a difference as the super chips programer I used with a '04 5.4 motor but it helps. The premium fuel performance program seems give the best all around throttle response & economy. I install the towing program when I tag a trailer on.
Not into racing anymore so the 4.10's that are in the truck now are lower than I want & all that was available from Ford. Have considered a gear vendor aux trans for highway use or when I don't need 4x4 which is 99.9% of the time. Thought about changing ring & pinion gears at both ends of the truck but I tag a big trailer on it once in awhile. The jury is still out on this one.
Regards.
I have only looked at the intake sysem externally, thought there might be some development that has already been done to enhance its operation. More on this once I get into it.
Have a Troyer XCAL 2 programer with 3 programs. One for regular fuel, one for premium fuel towing & one for premium fuel performance. IMHO it is not as effective & does not make as much of a difference as the super chips programer I used with a '04 5.4 motor but it helps. The premium fuel performance program seems give the best all around throttle response & economy. I install the towing program when I tag a trailer on.
Not into racing anymore so the 4.10's that are in the truck now are lower than I want & all that was available from Ford. Have considered a gear vendor aux trans for highway use or when I don't need 4x4 which is 99.9% of the time. Thought about changing ring & pinion gears at both ends of the truck but I tag a big trailer on it once in awhile. The jury is still out on this one.
Regards.
Originally Posted by Fredvon4
ChurchKey
If you would get a look at a 99-2004 2v V10s intake and exhaust systems then take a very close look at you 3v V10 2006 version you will see that Ford already did all this for you and that is where they got the extra Horse Power and Torque....
I doubt you can do any better with any aftermarket modifications... many have tried, Captain Charlie has the most experience with the 3v V10 and he has decided to go back to the stock set up after dropping a few thousand dollars and a LOT of dyno and track time
Best bang for the buck he got was the 4.56:1 gears and a chip tuner he had to tinker with a LOT.
The 3v V10 is a highly sophisticated machine with a computer controlled intake plenum with a variable volume vane /butterfly valve inside it to enhance flow speed and volume... seems to be real sensitive to drastic changes in the exhaust side and not care too much on the intake air filter side... your air box and filter is already full flowing and gets cold air from two directions and the paper filter is about as big as they make and not restrictive at all.
On a dyno most of the aftermarket air filter elements only show a slight increase at the higher RPMs. They provide no extra flow at any normal cruise RPM in the 1700-3200 range
If you would get a look at a 99-2004 2v V10s intake and exhaust systems then take a very close look at you 3v V10 2006 version you will see that Ford already did all this for you and that is where they got the extra Horse Power and Torque....
I doubt you can do any better with any aftermarket modifications... many have tried, Captain Charlie has the most experience with the 3v V10 and he has decided to go back to the stock set up after dropping a few thousand dollars and a LOT of dyno and track time
Best bang for the buck he got was the 4.56:1 gears and a chip tuner he had to tinker with a LOT.
The 3v V10 is a highly sophisticated machine with a computer controlled intake plenum with a variable volume vane /butterfly valve inside it to enhance flow speed and volume... seems to be real sensitive to drastic changes in the exhaust side and not care too much on the intake air filter side... your air box and filter is already full flowing and gets cold air from two directions and the paper filter is about as big as they make and not restrictive at all.
On a dyno most of the aftermarket air filter elements only show a slight increase at the higher RPMs. They provide no extra flow at any normal cruise RPM in the 1700-3200 range
#7
10-13-2006, 10:37 PM
Trending Topics
#8
10-14-2006, 11:01 AM
BANKS and BORLA make the "long" style headers for the V10's. i don't know if they are out for the 3 valve engines, or what the increases will be. the BANKS web site has 99-06 listed but it only shows up to 04 on the listings.
don't go for the "short" style with the currly Q style pipe. they are a PITA to put on (more than the BANKS and BORLA) and they don't have neerly the power increase. installed a set and drove the truck for a "test drive" and there was very little difference. sound was alittle better though.
the BANKS headers w/ Ypipe livened up my 10er (2-valve) the most out of any other mods when i still had my 3.73's in.
don't go for the "short" style with the currly Q style pipe. they are a PITA to put on (more than the BANKS and BORLA) and they don't have neerly the power increase. installed a set and drove the truck for a "test drive" and there was very little difference. sound was alittle better though.
the BANKS headers w/ Ypipe livened up my 10er (2-valve) the most out of any other mods when i still had my 3.73's in.
Last edited by TeamMudd; 10-14-2006 at 11:02 AM. Reason: forgot something
#9
10-14-2006, 03:41 PM
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on a 3 valve motor forget it all. the afe cold air kit really is not cold air it gets lots of hot air as it dosn't seal tightly against the hood and uses the lower half of the stock air box to hold it down. exhaust open it up and the monster looses power not gain due to the new variable intake system.
don't think about cutting the front cat/ypipe assmembly. i did . cost me at mechanics price $1285.68 plus a 10 buck gasket to replace it.
deep tranie pan of the maghytek type is another forget it. the high priced ypipe is in the way thats what made me cut my pipes to clear. only the pan kept leaking at the rear of it and had to come back off.
i tryed many many after market parts on my 05 3 v motor. no real big emprovement. my best bang was a sctflash excal2 tuner done up by a local to me shop . every thing else i had to take back off to get it to run properly again the 3 valve motor is best left alone and just driven.
sorry to be so neg.here but we used about 8k in advertiseing money from my shop and found out the hard way about the v10 3 valve motor. ford has it very well pulled out.
it's each to own about doing and not doing, i did and wish i hadn't
don't think about cutting the front cat/ypipe assmembly. i did . cost me at mechanics price $1285.68 plus a 10 buck gasket to replace it.
deep tranie pan of the maghytek type is another forget it. the high priced ypipe is in the way thats what made me cut my pipes to clear. only the pan kept leaking at the rear of it and had to come back off.
i tryed many many after market parts on my 05 3 v motor. no real big emprovement. my best bang was a sctflash excal2 tuner done up by a local to me shop . every thing else i had to take back off to get it to run properly again the 3 valve motor is best left alone and just driven.
sorry to be so neg.here but we used about 8k in advertiseing money from my shop and found out the hard way about the v10 3 valve motor. ford has it very well pulled out.
it's each to own about doing and not doing, i did and wish i hadn't
#10
10-15-2006, 01:13 PM
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Man I hate to keep beating on this same drum but here goes! Fred and Capchas are correct, you just are not going to get anymore out of that engine. Read here whet Kenne Bell has to say about it:
"Contrary to what the ads say, there is no HP in the exhaust, inlet or headers for the Ford V10. We never saw a set of headers that didn't hurt low
end torque. Customers have come by our shop with every brand header made. We've seen some real B.S. ads claiming up to 60HP for
"headers, exhaust and cool air kit." If you believe these ads, you may as well believe in the Tooth Fairy. Again, bring the parts to Kenne Bell with
a magazine writer and let's test them one by one. And forget those cheapie Mickey Mouse exposed underhood filters, throttle body spacers,
turbulators, oversize mass air meter, throttle body and ignition. We never saw HP gains in any of these products. Ford engineers just didn't
leave any HP in the inlet or exhaust systems."
He also goes on to say the programming chips are your best way for your money power increases, but they don't give up a whole lot either but they yield more than headers.
Save your money.!
"Contrary to what the ads say, there is no HP in the exhaust, inlet or headers for the Ford V10. We never saw a set of headers that didn't hurt low
end torque. Customers have come by our shop with every brand header made. We've seen some real B.S. ads claiming up to 60HP for
"headers, exhaust and cool air kit." If you believe these ads, you may as well believe in the Tooth Fairy. Again, bring the parts to Kenne Bell with
a magazine writer and let's test them one by one. And forget those cheapie Mickey Mouse exposed underhood filters, throttle body spacers,
turbulators, oversize mass air meter, throttle body and ignition. We never saw HP gains in any of these products. Ford engineers just didn't
leave any HP in the inlet or exhaust systems."
He also goes on to say the programming chips are your best way for your money power increases, but they don't give up a whole lot either but they yield more than headers.
Save your money.!
#11
10-15-2006, 05:17 PM
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may i add that in my mind. i would never make any recormendation to use mbrp exhausts on a gas motor esp. on a v10 for very high unbarable noise levels inside the cab and poor fit. bends, hanger location. afe air intake kits for the 3 valve as they don't really give the motor any cold air. don't seal to the hood. and pull air in from the stock location on the air box and addapts down to the stock air, the 3 valve motor gets more air and colder air out of the stock filter. mainly all it gets is hot air from under the hood. and maghytek as their supposed deep pan for the 5r110w has a oring grove that sits inside the case in the right rear cornor by the the tail extension allowing oil to leak onto the crossover pipe from left to right side, which also has to be cut, dropped and custom bent to clear. then if a allumized pipe is used it burns out from the heat levels of the cats exhaust. hense my very costly new cat/ crossover pipe set. might well work if it didn't have that dumb oring cut were it would sit on a 4r100 and dosn't leak. plus the pipes are not in the way on a 4r100 w a 2valve motor.
all three companies plus the one i purchased the mbrp v10 exhaust from through my shop offered no return help with after sales of the products they sold. what i got was we will get back then nothing. they may very well work well on a diesel but a gas motor they don't.
out of pocket and lost. mbrp exhaust $746.00. afe $ 243.00, maghytek another $325.00 plus 4 cases of mercron sp to try to stop it from leaking.
many guys have has great results playing with the 2 v motor. the 3 v it's a different dog way different.
all three companies plus the one i purchased the mbrp v10 exhaust from through my shop offered no return help with after sales of the products they sold. what i got was we will get back then nothing. they may very well work well on a diesel but a gas motor they don't.
out of pocket and lost. mbrp exhaust $746.00. afe $ 243.00, maghytek another $325.00 plus 4 cases of mercron sp to try to stop it from leaking.
many guys have has great results playing with the 2 v motor. the 3 v it's a different dog way different.
#12
10-15-2006, 07:59 PM
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h20boy, have not changed the Y pipe. Please describe "flutter".
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TeamMudd, Thanks, checked the borla & banks sites, nothing there for my application.
I will focus on building new head pipes with better flowing converters & changing the collector. Looking at the inside of the stock collector it is a poor design & has to create a lot of reversion.
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Captchas, Thanks for the input. I have made numerous exhaust systems so fabricating a new head pipe is no biggie for me. Will probably make it with Stainless Steel tube.
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Pops, Kenny Bell may be on to something, I concur with the programmer. However, when I can hear the exhaust hissing out the tailpipe under full throttle the system is restrictive. Maybe its the muffler, maybe its the small converters, maybe its the reversion in the poor design of the merge collector. The jury is still out but I'll keep working on it anyway.
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TeamMudd, Thanks, checked the borla & banks sites, nothing there for my application.
I will focus on building new head pipes with better flowing converters & changing the collector. Looking at the inside of the stock collector it is a poor design & has to create a lot of reversion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Captchas, Thanks for the input. I have made numerous exhaust systems so fabricating a new head pipe is no biggie for me. Will probably make it with Stainless Steel tube.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pops, Kenny Bell may be on to something, I concur with the programmer. However, when I can hear the exhaust hissing out the tailpipe under full throttle the system is restrictive. Maybe its the muffler, maybe its the small converters, maybe its the reversion in the poor design of the merge collector. The jury is still out but I'll keep working on it anyway.
#13
10-16-2006, 08:09 AM
Curchkey
I have about 3 decades of real world experience in exhaust systems in every application from 3.5HP Briggs motors all the way to 6v71series Detroit diesel and almost every gas automotive motor except the Mazda Wankel designs. In an earlier life I competitively raced 2 cycle dirt bikes from 90cc all the way to 650cc. During my soldier years I competitively raced stock cars (hobby class) and SCCA sports cars. Along the way I got into smallish 2 to 3 liter motors with big HP and torque from turbocharging. I have designed my own 2 cycle expansion pipes. I have made my own Garret and Air Research based twin turbo inter-cooled systems, and I have fabricated 180 degree V8 system for circle track.
Air flow into and out of a motor is a direct science. And it also requires a LOT of compromises... optimizing for max HP or Torque always results in a motor with a very narrow peak power band. And this peak is always above 3600rpm and below 7000 rpm in NA V8 (or V10) BB gas motors.
I always assume my V10 fellow owners on these sites have the truck too be a TRUCK... if this is the case you are fighting a loosing battle...the Ford engineers made the 3v V10 to have the broadest, flattest power curve of any internal combustion normally aspirated motor ever produced.. Your exhaust system is full flowing, almost balanced (driver side down pipe is a tad too long in my opinion), and already completely stainless...It is also very rugged for long life in off road use.
If you want to race the truck it can be improved on a little...but for normal drivability all you will do is disrupt the low end balance......
It sounds like you have some experience and plan to try anyway and to tell the truth that is cool with me... I am stubborn too and love to tinker and experiment.
So do us 3v V10 owners a favor.... get your 06 fully broken in and get a three run set of graphs on a chassis dyno
Make your mods and get pictures
Get some after "mod" dyno runs
If you can get the 1700 to 4200 rpm zone to increase more then 7 HP I will be the first to praise your effort and tell all the 05 and up folks to check out your "Formula"
The only way to get 15-30 more HP out of this motor will require a comprehensive, balanced, plan with an equal increase in intake flow, valve lift and timing, and true dual balanced "H" or "X" much shorter exhaust system.
I have about 3 decades of real world experience in exhaust systems in every application from 3.5HP Briggs motors all the way to 6v71series Detroit diesel and almost every gas automotive motor except the Mazda Wankel designs. In an earlier life I competitively raced 2 cycle dirt bikes from 90cc all the way to 650cc. During my soldier years I competitively raced stock cars (hobby class) and SCCA sports cars. Along the way I got into smallish 2 to 3 liter motors with big HP and torque from turbocharging. I have designed my own 2 cycle expansion pipes. I have made my own Garret and Air Research based twin turbo inter-cooled systems, and I have fabricated 180 degree V8 system for circle track.
Air flow into and out of a motor is a direct science. And it also requires a LOT of compromises... optimizing for max HP or Torque always results in a motor with a very narrow peak power band. And this peak is always above 3600rpm and below 7000 rpm in NA V8 (or V10) BB gas motors.
I always assume my V10 fellow owners on these sites have the truck too be a TRUCK... if this is the case you are fighting a loosing battle...the Ford engineers made the 3v V10 to have the broadest, flattest power curve of any internal combustion normally aspirated motor ever produced.. Your exhaust system is full flowing, almost balanced (driver side down pipe is a tad too long in my opinion), and already completely stainless...It is also very rugged for long life in off road use.
If you want to race the truck it can be improved on a little...but for normal drivability all you will do is disrupt the low end balance......
It sounds like you have some experience and plan to try anyway and to tell the truth that is cool with me... I am stubborn too and love to tinker and experiment.
So do us 3v V10 owners a favor.... get your 06 fully broken in and get a three run set of graphs on a chassis dyno
Make your mods and get pictures
Get some after "mod" dyno runs
If you can get the 1700 to 4200 rpm zone to increase more then 7 HP I will be the first to praise your effort and tell all the 05 and up folks to check out your "Formula"
The only way to get 15-30 more HP out of this motor will require a comprehensive, balanced, plan with an equal increase in intake flow, valve lift and timing, and true dual balanced "H" or "X" much shorter exhaust system.
#14
10-16-2006, 08:55 AM
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Fredvon4, Thanks for your input. We have similar backgrounds. In previous replies to the topic I did not want to get into the technical aspect of the exhaust system however I fully understand tube diameters & lengths & how they compare to engine rpm & the effect it has on engine torque as to where & when it will be at its peak. With only 41 cu in per cylinder on the V10 my current calculations indicate that a small primary tube diameter with a length of 38" into a merge collector with a 2 & 1/2" outlet should give the desired torque off idle to about 4K. I want all the torque on the bottom of the rpm range, don't care about HP or what goes on at 6K because I do not reach that rpm when towing. For me its all about torque.
I agree that the stock left head pipe is to long. Currently I am thinking along the lines of using the stock manifolds & making it a 2x2 system with larger converters & a balance tube. I may incorporate a lollypop in each head pipe so the torque is adjustable. Will try this first as its a weekend project.
I agree that the stock left head pipe is to long. Currently I am thinking along the lines of using the stock manifolds & making it a 2x2 system with larger converters & a balance tube. I may incorporate a lollypop in each head pipe so the torque is adjustable. Will try this first as its a weekend project.