Hello all,

I have a 1978 F-150 with a 400 (rebuilt with some compression) engine and C6. I have been noticing a slow down on my starter's cranking speed recently until today it stopped turning entirely. I have 2 Marine Blue topped Optimas in the truck which have been charged up with my battery charger for a day or 2 prior to me operating the truck. The truck has been sitting mostly because of it thirst for expensive fuel. I used a jumper cable from the starter side of the starter solenoid to the + side of the battery and no crank. I have many redundant grounds of considerable size because of the 2 batteries so I am not concerned about the battery cables. I have a switch to connect the batteries together with a solenoid and it makes no difference. I am confident the problem lies with the starter. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..............

What kind of starter should I buy? I was thinking about one of those small high torque permanent magnet units. Any recommendations? How about brands to avoid?

Thanks in advance,

MasterMarine

 

Try the guys down here in electrical for info.

 

Hello??? Anyone here???

Someone must have an opinion.

I need to buy a new starter soon and would like some input.

Thanks,
MasterMarine

 

I have never had any problem with stock type starters. What type of ignition are you using? The stock Ford duraspark II had a timing retard feature during cranking to make the engine easier to turn over. Some of the fancy aftermarket ignition systems have this feature also.

I have no experience with the aftermarket gear reduction starters.

 

The only one that I have seen was $358 so I lost interest. Looked like a great unit.

 

I have the stock ignition system.

I saw some permanent magnet Powermaster models from Summit and Jeg's for $159.00. How much is a stock one? I am used to marine starter prices and $159.00 would be a pretty good price for a marine starter.

I just was hoping to gain from others experiences prior to installing a new starter. The smaller size looks like it would get the starter motor a little farther away from the hot header.

MasterMarine

 

I don't have any experience with after market starters - my stock starter is 30 years old (has never been off the engine till now) this year and was just given a healthy rating by a starter repair shop. If any starter can last 30 years, it can't be too bad. My problem is a common one - when the engine is hot the starter labors to start up my 460. So, whatever you buy, try to install some kind of heat shield to deflect that heat from the headers. I'm going to make up a crude aluminum double layer one to see if it helps.

 

Mr. Fixit, another thing that helps is to upgrade your battery cables to OO welding cable and insulate the one going by the exhaust.

 

Bdox: Thanks, I'll do that but, exactly, how do you insulate the new starter cable? Wrap it in aluminum foil?

 

I have used firesuit material. It is like a fiber glass fabric with a metallic coating. I was in Lost Angeles then and I don't remember where I bought it. I used a heavy duty stapler to secure it. I'm sure there are other materials available, I'll look around.

Here is a possible source: http://www.adlinsulflex.com/fire-sleeves/

 

Bdox: the "Fiberflex" tape looks very good but I don't need a 150 foot roll. Next time I'm down at the wrecking yard I'll look around for some aluminumized fabric found on the underside of hoods - that might do. Also, I have some aluminum duct tape that can be wrapped around anything. First I have to measure up the length of heavy gauge wire necessary to go from the relay to the starter and get the proper ends put on the wire.
Thanks for your help!

 

Sometimes you can call those companies and ask them to send a "sample" for evaluation.

 

I bought a Torque Master which is made by Power-Master. It really spins over my high compression 400 well. I have not had it completely warmed up yet but it definitely works better than my old stock one ever even thought about. I also have always had some trouble with my stock starter when warm. Lately I would have to turn on the solenoid between my blue top Optimas for a little jump start action when the engine was warmed up. I guess it was just signs of the starter loosing its edge.

During the installation, I tried about 10 different combinations of clocking the starter to the adapter to get the best separation from the header. I found the best spot on about the 6th try but then could not figure out where that was to put it back. At least the starter is relatively easy to hold up in position. I also had to put in the shim to pull the starter away from the ring gear.

I, like most people, did not read the instructions very well. There are 2 terminals on the starter and only one wire coming down. The terminals are marked "ignition" and "Battery". I figured the big wire from the solenoid should go to battery and the other must be for some rigs where they have the ignition hooked to the starter to get the full 12v for the ignition system with points. I tried it and no crank. I scratched my head for a while. Checked battery cables. Tried using a jumper cable from positive on battery directly to the cable going to the starter at the starter solenoid. Nothing. Not even a teeny tiny spark. I reread the directions. They say if you only have one wire to the starter, you must make a jumper between ignition terminal and battery terminal of at least 12 gauge wire. I built one and installed it. It worked. The engine cranked over very quickly and then started. On every other starter solenoid I have dealt with, the terminals were marked "I" for ignition, and "S" for start lead. I guess they have to do it their own way. So aside from that the starter works awesome.

I decided to order one of those starter heat shield wraps along with the starter so I put it on at the same time. I hope it makes the starter last longer than the old one. Because the new starter is way smaller than the old one (and clock-able), it is about 2 1/2 inches away from the header rather than 1/4 inch like the old one.

Looks like a good upgrade.

later,
MasterMarine

 

Now you have two switches in the circuit that both drop a little voltage to the starter. It would be better to run a wire directly from the battery + terminal to the large "Battery" terminal on the starter then run a wire from the ignition START terminal either at the Key or at the fender solenoid to the "ignition" terminal on the starter. You can keep the regular solenoid on the fender as a source of voltage to the ignition system during cranking.

 

What you are saying makes sense but would it really be worth changing? The jumper is energizing the solenoid in the starter at the same time as the starter gets its B+ from the stock solenoid.

Now that you got me thinking about it, I would think it would be better to hook the starter "ignition" lead to the big output on the stock solenoid which currently carries the load to the starter. It is common on stern-drives in boats to have a "helper" solenoid to avoid problems with voltage drop from long leads going to the key switch. It is probably just a matter of time before I have a bad connection somewhere in the start circuit on this old rig. I could just move the battery cable over to the B+ side of the stock solenoid, pull the jumper and then run a good sized lead up to the switched side of the stock solenoid from the "ignition" terminal on the starter. The instructions recommend 12 gauge.

It does not appear the starter is suffering from a lack of voltage or amperage in its current setup.

Maybe I will mess with it later. Perhaps you can convince me of the benefit.