I think my van is aout of time, not sure though. First off its a 351W, the pointer isn't calibrated to show degrees and neither is the hamonic dampner, all it has is a slot on it. My question is the pointer and the mark on the dampner supposed to line up and this is my setting or am I missing something with degree marks on it?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

What year is it?

Do you have a sticker on in the engine compartment that gives specs or tells you not to adjust?

USUALLY, the mark on the damper and pointer coincide with TDC (top dead center). You want TDC on the compression stroke as the starting point.

Timing is usually set between 6 to 12 degrees before TDC, depending on the year and how it's equipped.

Did you pull the distributor or otherwise disturb the setting?

Why do you think it is out of time?

Does it backfire easily?

Hard to start?

Ping?

Tell us more, you'll get the better minds to chime in.

 

Do you have a carb?
If so do you have a vacuum diaphragm on the distributor?

 

Mine is an '87 E150 with the 351w, EEEIV controlled motor. yours MAY be similar. Timing this engine requires a "set-back" timing gun that costs around 400, last I checked. I had to have mine done by a pro as a result, but the ONLY reason it should need re-timed is if you have physically changed the timing. I did so as a result of putting on a new control module on the side of the distributor, so I paid a guy 20 bucks to reset it for me. But the design of the computer/engine is such that it apparently sets itself in normal operation. Heck, when he was setting it, he had the engine running, pulled the connector completely off the distributor and it STILL RAN! He said it would do so for two hours like that! with NO JUICE going to the distributor!
boggles the mind, doesn't it?
Anyway, before going through all that, make sure your vaccuum lines are all firmly connected on the manifold (just follow the vaccuum line that runs from your MAP sensor, the little black box mounted just under the top cowl to the passenger side; it will lead you to the vaccuum manifold) and that your coil is up to snuff, both the primary AND secondary circuits... I've had problems with that before, too. pull the electrical connector from the coil front and make sure your contacts are not burned and that the wires are fimly connecting well, too. THAT enough homework for ya? LOL...
good luck & God bless
Tom

 

To mrfixit64857
Tom if you have an EEC IV what he pulled out is the SPOUT shorting bar. If you unplug the wiring from the TFI module the engine will run for zero seconds.
Great story but I hope you did not believe this "pro".
I just checked with Snap-On and there is no such thing as a "set-back" timing light, did you mean adjustable advance timing light? They are about $400.00 but you do not need them with an EEC IV system.
Changing the control module (TFI module) on the side of the distributor will not change the timing.
We are talking about a stock system here, are we not?

What it sounds like beaners1 has is an EEC III system but I need his answers to the above questions to be sure.
With the EEC III system you do not use the timing light, the distributor drops into a notch and you have a pickup down by the damper. You also have no wires going to the distributor a no module on the side of the distributor.
There is a complete procedure for setting the EEC III system up.

 

Sorry about being so broad with my question.
It is an 80 E150, 351W, EECIII, 2-barrell motocraft carb.

I think the timing may be off because it runs 220 on the temp(after market, not electric guage) and it really seems to lack power. The timing could also be off not just because of physically disturbing the system but also do to age and mileage like have a stetched chain, "sloppy" gears , worn out distibutor gear or a worn out cam gear.

I am aware of the adjustable timing lights but the wife wouldn't let me buy one (too much money, around here they are $150) My ? is if there is a degreed mark on the timing chain cover originally and if mine had just broke off or are the marks on the dampner, I have seen vehicles with both of these set ups.

I am only going to check it too see where its at, adjust it and see if the temp comes down or if I gain any power back. If I do then I know I have to go into the engine further and start replacing worn out parts.

A brief history on the van, 160K on it when I bought it, still had original plugs, wires, cap, rotor,etc. Also did a tranny filter change on it and found the plug that ford uses during assembly before the dipstick is put in, this tells me that the van had very little TLC by the previous owners.

Thanks again for the help, I guess if I have to get an adjustable timing light I will, always looking for a good excuse to buy more tools anyway---(Just have to have it to fix it dear)

 

This can be hard to do as it's hard to get a grip on the crank pulley. Maybe you can do it pulling on the belts. Worst case is pull the plugs to do it.

Pull the distributor cap. Rotate the motor by hand. Then, while watching the rotor, reverse the rotation. If you get much rotation before the rotor moves, your timing chain is shot and may have jumped one tooth already if you are that down on power.

When it runs, does the idle vary?

 

As I said above with the EEC III system you do not use a timing light. It has no timing marks but you should have a pointer down there that has a round hole in it and in the round hole there should be a sensor, this is your crankshaft position sensor and is wired to the computer under the drivers seat. There should be a TDC mark on the damper for the pointer.
There are no primary wires going to the distributor and no vacuum diaphragm on it.
The distributor sets in a notch and you do not turn it for timing but there is a procedure for initial set up for timing.More than likely your spark plug wires are in the wrong order. I will put a post up on this after this post. You may need a timing chain as they go out at about 180K.As said above you do not need one.

 

If the computer (ECA) is under the seat it is most likely to be an EEC-III engine.

A few ways to confirm EEC-III:
1. It will be listed as such on the decal on the upper radiator support bracket.
2. The ignition module has a brown grommet.
3. The distributor rotor is disk shaped and has electrodes on both sides.
4. There is no vacuum or mechanical advance mechanism on the distributor.
5. There is a ring with 4 lobes behind the harmonic balancer.

The ECA control's the ignition timing and advance. It gets a signal from a Crankshaft Position Sensor mounted over the 4 lobed Pulse Ring. The CPS is a simple coil wound magnet. If it fails, the engine won't start. You can easily test it in place with an ohm meter. It should test 100-640 ohms. If it tests open circuit, it's failed and is easy to replace.

If someone unfamiliar with this type of ignition did something as simple as change the plug wires without knowing what they were doing, it could make the engine run rough or not at all.

The firing order is normal 351w:
CCW 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

The the order the wires are arranged on the cap is:
CCW 1-5-7-8-6-3-4-2

This is because the EEC-III distributor has electrodes on both sides of the rotor. So it fires alternately from both sides. So even though it's wired in a different order, if you go back and fourth from one side to the other, the firing order is the same.

EEC-III is often misunderstood because it is overshadowed by the greater number of the more simple Dura Spark II ignition. EEC-III (Dura Spark III) is more complex, but is capable of controlling the ignition advance up to a maximum of 50 degrees advance and control the engine more efficiently. It was used in both carbureted and fuel injected engines.

Oh, and yes, there is a relay on the ECA to protect it from reversed battery polarity.

The one adjustment that can be made to the EEC-III distributor is distributor alignment. It can be useful whether someone has monkey'd with your distributor or when you install a new one:

With the rotor removed, rotate the crank to align the smaller notch in the dist. shaft with the notch in the adaptor. With cyl #1 on compression stroke, the timing mark on the vibration damper should be plus or minus 4 degrees of TDC when the two notches are aligned.

So, with the notches aligned if you are within 4 deg of TDC, you're good and it's close enough.

If you are off by more than 4 degrees:

The procedure then is to turn the engine so the timing mark is at TDC and then loosen the two bolts holding the sleeve assembly on the distributor shaft. Then you can put a screwdriver in the notch in the shaft and turn it so the smaller notch in the shaft aligns with the notch in the adapter. Once aligned, tighten down the two small bolts on the sleeve assembly. You are supposed to use a special alignment tool that fits in both notches and holds them true. Eyeballing it works just fine as long as you don't disturb the alignment while tightening the two sleeve bolts.

Here's a photo showing the notches in the shaft and adaptor aligned. The two small bolts securing the sleeve can be seen on either side of the shaft.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g91/subford/DPIIINotch.jpg

The Computer:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...8F_270x202.jpg

The Dura-Spark III also uses a double tier rotor. This distributor has no vacuum advance. It is done through the computer. See below. There are no pick ups in this distributor.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...0F_272x209.jpg

The Cap:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...9F_273x207.jpg

 

Bill,
I'm afraid I have to stand by what I said to a point. I KNOW the engine will run with the plug off of the TFI module because I was there when it happened, and was amazed. Now, he did it WHILE the engine was running... maybe that made the difference? I don't know for sure... it was two years ago. And I know it's an EEEIV because I am the one who bought, paid and installed the replacement. this is a late 87 5.8 with fuel injection, and the intake mani is one that looks more like a tunnel ram... The distributuor is sandwiched in there like a poor skinny kid stuck between two football players on an airplane, lol... right between the manifold and the water inlet, hence the need to move the distributor to get at the 2nd bolt on the module.
"set-back" was admittedly a misnomer. I guess I stuck that name in my head because (according to my motor guide) the timing gun had to be retarded, i.e.,
set back. I apologize for any confusion. I'd include pics but haven't bought up my subscription yet, lol...
I honestly can't say the whole thing is STOCK.... the manual doesn't have any pics that even resemble my intake setup but I DID find some schematics online for it... go figure!

 

To mrfixit64857

beaners1 do not read this post, it is not your system.

Tom all I can say is that in an EEC-IV system the TFI module fires the Ignition Coil and if you unplug it the coil can no longer fire. With out spark at the plugs the engine will not run very long. Also with out the PIP to the EEC Computer the fuel pump relay will drop out and you will no longer have fuel.

Here are two diagrams of this system:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9.../TFIModule.gif

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...TFIDISMONT.gif

 

I apologize to all readers... I took this off subject. I especially apologize to beaners1... just got to wondering how what I saw happen happened, lol...
Im out..

 

My mistake on the ignition, my truck had the eec system on it the van has the duraspark systen on it. The module has the number 12A199 on it, not sure if it's the I, II, or III system. The sticker under the hood says 10 degrees at 500 rpm with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged. I just don't know where 10 degrees is.

 

Maybe this will help:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g91/subford/Engine/TimingMark5.jpg

Hook (clamp) the timing light to #1 plug wire, loosen the hold down bolt for the distributor, start the engine. Turn the distributor with the engine running @ 500 rpm with the vacuum hose off and plugged until the pointer points to 10 degrees BTDC. Tighten the hold down bolt and recheck the mark, if OK stop engine, re-plug the hose and unclamp the timing light and you are done.
#1 plug in the front plug on the passenger side and should also be marked 1 on the distributor cap.

 

I do know how to time an engine and the picture would be a great help but my dampner doesn't have those marks on it and the pointer isn't calibrated