Interesting UOA
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Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2001
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Before you guys start hammering API as the villian in the reduction of the ZDDP as a Cat destroying additive, they have nothing to do with the limitations as such. The ILSAC is the one that makes up the rules. The ILSAC is comprised of GM, Ford, DM, and JAMA (Japanese Auto Manufacturers Association) and they are given the task to make their engines complaint with Uncle Sammys emmissions criteria. Part of this is the US spec to have the engines emmissions complaint for 150,000 miles. It cannot be done with the amounts of ZDDP that was in the oils years ago. API just enforces the specs written by ILSAC. Here is a linky for your review:
http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_...ch=%22ilsac%22
Hope this is useful info.
FWIW, the GF-4 oils are that of ILSAC, not API.
http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_...ch=%22ilsac%22
Hope this is useful info.
FWIW, the GF-4 oils are that of ILSAC, not API.
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
The automakers may have been the ones to complain, but it still ultimately had to go through the API. Do you think they just do this stuff on a whim? I know if I was in a state where they did inspections, I wouldn't want my catylitic converter going out in 100,000 miles, or even 200,000.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Iowa
This is true, a catylitic converter is cheaper than an engine, but your numbers are arbitrary. To do it right, you'd need to compare a UOA's. And right now, it appears to me that the UOA's with SM oil in engines designed for it are going to be very hard to improve upon.
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Gadsden Purchase
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
This is true, a catylitic converter is cheaper than an engine, but your numbers are arbitrary. To do it right, you'd need to compare a UOA's. And right now, it appears to me that the UOA's with SM oil in engines designed for it are going to be very hard to improve upon.
...and it's the nice folks in D.C. that's choosing this for all of us.So what about an available oil additive that supplies the needed ZDDP for the old non-cat vehicles?
Alvin in AZ
ps- I bought my 1975 F150 over a 1975 F100 to side-step the gov't requirement for a "cadillac convertor"
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Iowa
I'll leave out my thoughts about the folks in D.C. as responding would violate more than one board policy....
Anyway, I'd pick an oil that already has the required amount of ZDDP in it. Namely, a dual rated diesel oil. Like I said, no need for additives.
Anyway, I'd pick an oil that already has the required amount of ZDDP in it. Namely, a dual rated diesel oil. Like I said, no need for additives.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: Metro Detroit (Redford)
The CD-2 stuff I mentioned in my first post is about the best zddp deal out there right now.
The dual rated oils are another zddp option, but watch out, the regulators are pushing to reduce zddp in these oils also. It's only a matter of time.
The biggest problem with the folks in DC is that there are way too many of them.
The dual rated oils are another zddp option, but watch out, the regulators are pushing to reduce zddp in these oils also. It's only a matter of time.
The biggest problem with the folks in DC is that there are way too many of them.
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Gadsden Purchase
Originally Posted by TallPaul
The CD-2 stuff I mentioned in my first post is about the best zddp deal out there right now.
The dual rated oils are another zddp option, but watch out, the regulators are pushing to reduce zddp in these oils also. It's only a matter of time.
The biggest problem with the folks in DC is that there are way too many of them.
After they got those cleaned up they needed a new "evil chemical" to work on or lose their expense accounts and car rentals and accumulated air miles.
Zinc is kinda poisonous no doubt, we've always known that.
Now I wonder... when will they get rid of those new one-cent pieces?
Alvin in AZ
Elder User
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 689
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From: VA
Seems that reducing ZDDP is a way of screwing the public. Now your tightly toleranced, hotter running engine will have less wear protection. Now the rings will wear cause more gas and oil to mix, wearing down more parts and sending more polution down the pipe. Seems to me the less wear on an engine, the less ZDDP can be puffed down to the cat.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,600
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From: Iowa
One would think so, but the UOA's dont lie. In the new vehicles it was designed for, SM seems to work well.
Now the story changes if you look at older engines with flat tappet cams. The reduced ZDDP levels can and do have an effect on those.
For the conspiracy theorist out there, consider this:
1. Who came up with the reduced ZDDP? ILSAC.
2. Who is ILSAC comprised of? Auto makers.
3. What do auto makers want you to buy? Automobiles.
4. What's the best way to create demand? Get the older vehicles with flat tappet cams off the road.
Now, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to put two and two together here...
Now the story changes if you look at older engines with flat tappet cams. The reduced ZDDP levels can and do have an effect on those.
For the conspiracy theorist out there, consider this:
1. Who came up with the reduced ZDDP? ILSAC.
2. Who is ILSAC comprised of? Auto makers.
3. What do auto makers want you to buy? Automobiles.
4. What's the best way to create demand? Get the older vehicles with flat tappet cams off the road.
Now, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to put two and two together here...
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Lynnwood, WA
I'd say in the automakers' defense that there's several things that are mandated by the feds (CAFE and emission, for instance); and they only need to care about their current (read: still under warranty) products.
In any case, one can get additives (i.e. Valvoline SynPower) that will add some of the needed ZDDP and some extra moly, amongst other things.
In any case, one can get additives (i.e. Valvoline SynPower) that will add some of the needed ZDDP and some extra moly, amongst other things.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Running Springs CA
I had to replace the cats on a 150,000 mile BMW because it failed smog last year. It has always burned about a quart every 4000 or so. The owners manual calls for 15W-40 dino as the primary recommendation. I have always used Delo 400. Compression is still at new spec and the cam lobes look brand new. A set of dealer cats is about $1800, aftermarket $750.
Jim
Jim
Elder User
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From: VA
Originally Posted by jimandmandy
I had to replace the cats on a 150,000 mile BMW because it failed smog last year. It has always burned about a quart every 4000 or so. The owners manual calls for 15W-40 dino as the primary recommendation. I have always used Delo 400. Compression is still at new spec and the cam lobes look brand new. A set of dealer cats is about $1800, aftermarket $750.
Jim
Jim
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2005
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Originally Posted by jimandmandy
I had to replace the cats on a 150,000 mile BMW because it failed smog last year. It has always burned about a quart every 4000 or so. The owners manual calls for 15W-40 dino as the primary recommendation. I have always used Delo 400. Compression is still at new spec and the cam lobes look brand new. A set of dealer cats is about $1800, aftermarket $750.
Jim
Jim
I am using the same oil, Chevron Delo 400, I agree, very good engine oil.
Last edited by 1975Ford; Jan 18, 2007 at 06:02 PM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
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From: Running Springs CA
Nope, 150,000 miles is considered normal life for the cats. "Universal" replacement cats wont fit under that car, its too tight under there. There are four small ones as part of a welded stainless steel headpipe assembly. The price seems reasonable, and, the state picked up $500 of it under an anti-smog program. It was $600 out-of-pocket, including diagnosis, labor and testing fees.
Jim
Jim
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