Ok, Guys here is you very own thread to **** all over each other..But PLEASE stop hijacking other threads for your argument.. Other people aren't interested and waste time reading your "standard argument" positions over and over...
Dave

 

were starting our own talk show, sorta like cross-fire ha ha. If you guys really look at the threads, I have allways tried to anwer the questions the best that I know how. But my reply's are allways attacked, so I fall into the trap of having to defend myself, instead of continueing the thread. Bob counts on this, so he can get it closed down. He hates performance that much. Sorry guys, I will try to ignor him in the future, but very hard.

 

Just calmly state your position, ideally having something credible to support it (test data, etc) if available really helps strengthen any persons position (and not just on this subject), then let people decide for themselves. Sometimes in life it's not a matter of what is being said but how it's being presented makes the difference. In the end, people will decide for themselves what they think is appropriate and will act accordingly. Nobody can forcibly change anyones opinion but when presented with evidence people are in a better position to accept/reject their current opinion.

*Never take life too seriously; nobody ever get out alive anyway .

 

Most of my evidence is that I have it on my truck and I know how it does, or doesn;t perform. This digging up articles to suport one's postion is crazy, because you can allways find an article somewhere to back yourself, everybody has an agenda. Most of the mods I have on my truck, is because I read how great the product is on one forum or another. Now it becomes first hand experience. I try and be as truthful as possible about a product that I have, or have used. I don't have an agenda, and all products don't work, nolonger will you find a tb spacer on my 4.0, it makes a better coaster. It didn't do anything for my 4.0, but I did notice a difference with a tb spacer on my jeep 2.5, I'm just being truthful in what I've found. I got the idea from the jeep forums from others that found benifit with the spacer. I thought, if it worked on my jeep, it should work on my ford, but it wasn't the case, and I reported as such. He wants me to prove an e-fan works with articles, like because I have one, my word isn't good enough, in other words I am a liar. If the fan was wothless, I wouldn't recomend it. I don't have any stock in the companies of which products I use, I just report my experiences, good, or bad. Like with aftermarket intakes, on the debates, 7 out of 10 people posting said they had good experiences with them, but 3 said they did not, so in the end, it's still left up to the poster if he wants to try one or not. Allways questioning someones integrity doesn't make for a healthy debate. If I knew how to post articles, or pitures, I could be as much of a smarty as Bob. But vehicles are my thing, not computers, I just use one to corrispond with you guy's about vehicles. This is my honest heartfelt position on the performance issue.

 

its kinda funny how we make such a big deal about something we'll probably spend our whole lives trying to discover stuff and never really enjoy what we have. but who am I kidding. Let the fun begin!

 

As a a child, when I or my brother would see something we wanted to buy, my Father would often take a look at the product and say "this is nothign more than a dollar remover." We'd look at him strangely and so he would continue, "It takes the dollars out of your pocket."

We have to remember that all companies, by definition, are trying to get the dollars out of our pocket.

And we, we want to believe the claims. Think of how many kids see a little crome exhaust tip on some guy's exhaust and say "I just know that makes it go faster". You could argue with them all day, but they think what they want to think.

My two bits...

"My Car runs better now that it's clean". It just does! Really!

 

this is pretty true actually, I agree. The problem I am running into with my motorcycle is it might have more power with mods, but it runs extremely rough. I would give anything for the original smooth feel of a properly tunned machine from the factory. I'm not about to do that to my truck. "One thing that helps hurts something else."

 

Hey Cowboybilly9mile - when we have included proof in the form of test data, such as the test data from dino tests done by K & N or Flowmaster for example, certain posters still continue to argue against that data, stating there own "private" tests prove likewise.

 

I really appreciate Bob, people get upset with him because he is interested in durability and economy, and he's a well educated man. I have known him a long time, and have never witnessed him even once attack anyone or present any false information. I know Bob hates cetain performance parts, particularly K&N, so then don't expect him to agree when you give your testimonial about how the K&N on your truck increased your power and have you a better torque curve! The fact is that most people who argue with people like Bob are illinformed, or just plain uninformed, but believe because it worked for them in their circumstance that all people should be doing it. And in reality there is no such thing as "free power", just that some power upgrades are a better investment. The debate rages on, and there are two very clear sides to choose between. But Bob has provided some incredibly useful information on this and other boards, you should be thanking him for his contribution, not picking his personal preferences and personality apart! Take it FWIW!

 

BSmitty, with all do respect, if Bobs interest are economy, then he should get a 4 cylinder, and stick to those topics. I did not spend all the money on my truck, just have someone basically say I'm lieing about the results. if it works, I say it works, if it doesn't, I tell that as well. I have played around with performance upgrades for years, on many different vehicles, it's alot of trial, and error. What works on one engine may not work on another, so you take a different aproach. It's not misinformation, it's personal experience, good, or bad. He feels it's his mission from God to debunk all performance upgrades, and parts. Some of us are modders, or rodders, and it gets on our nerves, these constant attacks on our interest, and hobby. I'm not a liar, I try to be honest as possible about my experience with products that I use, or have used. I know Bob thinks that I've never met a mod I didn't like, I wish I could say that was true, but there were alot of failures along the way on socalled performance upgrades. I have a decent package on my 4.0 now, that I'm very pleased with, and thats what I talk about when asked. You wouldn't know it, but Bob is one of my best friends on here, we pm each other often, I know how smart, and helpful he is. On this one issue, he knows how to push my buttons, and so he does. He never answers a performance question, he just tries to correct those who do. the argument insues between Bob and I, or Bob and waves, the guys question never gets answered, and the post gets shut down, and Bob seems quit happy with that, cause he keeps doing it.

 

I agree with BSmitty in that, just because Bob (or anyone for that matter) argues strongly against an idea or product, that doesn't mean he's a closed-minded old fogey. I think more than anything, Bob doesn't like to see good people conned out of their hard-earned cash. In many cases that means pointing out the drawbacks and/or exagerated performance claims of certain products. Cutting through the hype, so to speak.

Lets face it, it's not uncommon for someone with no more than a butt-dyno to come onto this board (any board, really) claiming that their new killer $800 air intake system has resulted in increases of "25+ hp." So what happens is, the younger, more impressionable FTE members read that and think to themselves "wow, I've got to get one of those" and then instead of paying their auto insurance premium (for example), they instead go out and invest in the killer intake. To their chagrin, these folks quickly discover that the 25+ hp gains are nowhere to be found except in someone's imagination. And now they have no insurance, either. Talk about a let down.

 

LOL, it's good to see everyone is still havin fun and not takin things to serious.

 

Ok, first, I would like to thank Dave for opening this thread, and also for the posts that have been made!

Yes, I DO have an agenda!! I am very sympathetic to young people. I simply hate to see young people throw their money away (and most don't have much money to start with). Most of these youngsters do not have the technical or engineering savy to see these mods simply don't work. I will repeat myself again, saying that 99% of ALL performance mods are a waste of money! JJanssen's father gave some great advice about companies taking money out of your pocket! The only way to get substantial performance gains is to go to forced induction, increased displacement and/or compression, or the use of higher numerical dif. ratios for increased "low-end".
Another thing that is not thought about in "performance mods" are the other parts of a vehicle, only the engine is considered. Things like tire speed ratings, suspension (handling) characteristics, brakes, cooling, etc. are seldom thought about. Think of a vehicle as a "system" with other components besides just an engine. Vehicle manufactures put speed limiters on their vehicles for a reason, and consumer safety is that reason! If a person wants power and/or speed, I suggest buying a vehicle that is already designed and built for speed. It is cheaper, safer, and the vehicle will be more reliable than trying to "mod" a vehicle. Something youngsters, and non-technical people should realize, ALL of the newer vehicles are highly tuned, and made to be as efficient as possible. This is mainly due to CAFE standards.

Now, while I am "venting". I simply despise MLM companies like Amsoil, commonly referred to as Scamsoil! These companies brainwash people into believing their get-rich-quick schemes. I have had friends and family members that have filed for bankruptsy from falling for these MLM company's
lies!!!

Now, hopefully I can reference this thread in the future for performance mod questions so I don't have to repeat myself!

 

May i ask, what does it matter? but, i wendel, i do back you up, all your two cents, seem to generally be a good lead to something, or atleast inspire someone to try something, well, except that 4x4 thing you showed me. but, it lead someone to tell me that the system isn't even a vaccum system. which is something i didn't know, and the guy who told me wouldn't have known i didn't know, unless he read that thing you posted. so, all your advice i generally respect, sometimes wonder, but still consider it as valid.

 

First and foremost - this statement is a blanket bs statement. Some mods don't work, yes I agree to that, but some mods do work. This is your real agenda right here, to debunk any and all mods instead of explaining what really does work and what really does not. Wouldn't that be a better way to help teach some of the younger less experienced guys/gals on this board Bob, by telling them the truth, the whole truth, instead of lying to them? There are some things you can do to increase performance without tearing into the motor or going forced induction. The mods listed in my signature work Bob, it was a process of doing the three mods combined together, we've gone over this before, now did it light the world on fire, no, but what I did do was give my truck a little help, a little more where the factory left off, especialy when towing as I do so often. Was it worth the money I spent, to me it was well worth the money, but that is something for each and every one of us to decide for ourselves Bob, just becuase you think it's not, and I think it is, does not make either one of us right or wrong, why not tell these people the truth and let them decide weather or not it's worth it or not to them. Other than this specific topic you give great advice and are a great source of info, but on this one topic you flat out lie and mislead people, instead of being honest, and just stating you don't think it's worth the cost to do certain mods that do work. If you want to teach people you need to stop lying to them, teach them about the things you don't think are worth the money and explain why you don't think it's worth it Bob....but flat out lying is not teaching them anything, in fact it could lead them to a worse sourse of info than this place, and that would be a shame - that could lead them to really waste some money.