Which is entirely within my explanation. The engineers do NOT design anything to last forever or to be bulletproof. They must design to a price-point. And, target product life is part of that price-point.

No, it doesn't. I never said they did. WHat I did say, and what is true, is that F&A not only gives engineering the design life parameters, but during production cost analysis, if the projected production costs exceed what F&A deems necessary for profit, it is left to the engineers to cut production costs. The engineers have to make decisions on what gets cheapened, what gets left off, and what must be completely redesigned in order to meet design requirements AND production cost requirements. That involves compromise. That is an important word.
And this differs from what I said exactly how? In fact, that is EXACTLY what I was saying, just reworded.

The whole subject of automotive manufacturing and marketing is extremely complex, and neither one nor both of us combined have barely scratched the surface. Most of us on this forum realize that.

Many people here are tinkering perfectionists that keep our vehicles a long, long time. THe last two vehicles that I no longer own (one sold, one totaled) were a Saturn with 270,000 miles, and a Toyota truck with 370,000 miles. Neither Saturn's nor Toyota's marketing research accounts for people like me - or most others on FTE, for one reason or another.

It does not matter whether or not the manufacturer saved $50 on my truck because it was built to make its marketing design parameters AND production cost requirements, It makes no difference to me that it left off an external filter that wasn't needed FOR THEIR REQUIREMENTS. As I keep my vehicles longer than average, I'll happily add the things that you deem worthless (engine oil bypass filter, trans filter, coolant filter) because my truck does not need to meet Ford's marketing-durability target, it has to meet MY requirements.

Why is this an issue for hostility? And, no. I didn't answer my own question, and neither did you.

Are there mods on this forum that I laugh at as worthless? Yes. Do I get on here and tell people they are stupid for wanting to do that mod? No. It is none of my business, AND I have better things to do with my energy.

Communicating information and ideas is so much more gratifying and interesting than hostility.

 

I'll give you that there are posters who seem to do things just to lengthen the list of "mods" in their signature. However, I would say that the general tone of this board is "show me how to do it better and/or cheaper".
I don't mind spending a little extra money if I can convince myself that what I am getting is better, and I don't care how cheap something is, if it does't work I don't want to do it. It is also important to me to make sure anything I do is easily and cheaply reversible if it doesn't work out for me.
I frequently argue against anyone doing the AIH delete, which from my experience is a waste of time. I hope, however, that I present my arguments with at least a measure of tact. Being loud doesn't make you right. I think if your message has merit, it will be heard above the clatter around here.

 

Moderators,

Can we kill this thread. I started it and got what i needed. Now its going no where and eating up storage space and bandwidth on the server

Thanks
Higgins

 

Let' let it go, nothing wrong with good discussion as long as there are no personal attacks.

 

More to the point, let's talk about transmission filters. I really like the idea of a little magnetic inline filter. It's cheap, and provides a bit of insurance for a transmission that is known to be marginal at best under heavy use.

Does the transmission pump enough fluid through the cooler for the big spin on to be any benefit?

 

Two things of note in your post.

First, there is a tendency for people with 7.3's to "hot rod" them up. There is also a tendency for people with 7.3's to tow 80 gazillion lb. trailers. Both of which are way out side of the 4R100 design specs.

So I disagree with the blanket statement that design of the 4R100 is margin and would correct that part of your post to read "marginal when abused, as it often is".

The second gets back to the whole point of my earlier post. While I know that reality and perception often operate in the same time and place, they are usually not interchangeable.

I work in the pharmaceutical industry, where double and triple blind studies are the norm. You would be amazed at the extremely narrow difference in the "cure" rate between the real drug and the sugar pill. Usually single digit percentages.

One poster in the auto industry talked about the OEM's testing of fuel savings devices and additives. They would give some people the "sugar pill" and tell them that they were getting some super gas saving additive and that their MPG's should increase substantially. Guess what? MPGs did go up even though they were putting absolutely nothing in their tanks. And the opposite was true. People getting the real stuff, if told they were getting the "sugar pill", actually reported a decrease in mileage.

So I take it with a grain of salt when people install "performance enhancing" or "longevity enhancing" doodads on their vehicles and swear that they work or do some good.

I don't want to hear what you "think" or what you "believe". I want to see data from controlled testing. Which is why I put some value on what the factory does or doesn't do. They have tested everything on the vehicle under every condition imaginable and came to a conclusion as to what is or isn't necessary. So if it didn't come from the factory, for the vast majority of people, it isn't needed.

And yes, the OEM's do try to save money, but you see what they do, they delete the glove box light, the under hood light, the door reflector light, the underhood insulation, the rear fender liners. They don't say "gee, a 10 quart oil pan is cheaper than a 15 quart oil pan, so let's switch them out and save some bucks".

So back to the question asked by you and the original poster. The 4R100 did not come with any external filter. So (I and maybe some others) start with the premise that one isn't needed. This being the case, explain to me why, if one isn't needed in the first place, a $200 filter is preferred to a $20 filter?

 

We disagree on this point. People who spend $300 on a useless mod tend to get defensive when told they wasted their money.

Agreed.

I understand your point, but when you are a single negative post buried in the middle of 10-20 positive posts, your message is hard to get through.

I also intend some of my posts to be provocative, to evoke a response, get a reaction. Do they sometimes rub people the wrong way? Obviously yes. But it can make for a better discussion.

 

How about shooting some " "performance enhancing" or "longevity enhancing" doodads" that u know don't work by me. We all would love to know what ones to avoid.Maybe start a new post on useless money waisting mods(backed up by fact).
Thanks.
Nut

 

Sure they do, but useless is relative to the user, what's useless to me (like exhaust stacks) might have a lot of value to someone else. But when someone shows us how to do a $300 mod for $200, they always get a pat on the back.
My experience has been just the opposite. When I have been the lone dissenting opinion, I practically get ALL the attention.
And I would suggest that the one thing placebo trials have proven is that for most individuals perception IS reality.

I bought a transmission filter under the perception that it would make my pickup (transmission) last longer. Before I got the filter, I pulled the ATF dipstick maybe once or twice a year. Now, I get under my pickup every two weeks or so, check the filter gauge and have a look around while I'm under there, while I'm thinking about it I pop the hood and pull the ATF dipstick, and again have a general look around.

So has the filter and gauge prolonged the life of my transmission? I would suspect so.

 

I'm not the one making the "performance enhancing" or "longevity enhancing" claim, so it is not up to me to prove (or disprove) anything.

So when someone says "You just have to do X" or "You are a fool not to do Z", I say "Why - Prove to me that it makes a difference".

"It works because I say so", "Prove that it doesn't work" or "The OEM engineers are stupid and don't know what they are doing" are not very scientific or defensible positions.

 

But you could have done all those things for free. You don't need a $200 filter. So when someone asks "How do I prolong the life of my transmission", according to your example, the correct answer should be:

every two weeks or so:

1. crawl under your truck and have a look around; and
2. pop the hood and pull the ATF dipstick

Are you saying that you had no self-discipline? That you had to be made to service your truck?

 

After careful consideration, I've realized that certain members of this forum must be right about everything. Engineers always know best, and always design the product to be exactly what it is supposed to be. They never leave off anything that would make it work better. They always include only components that work properly.

Anyone who mods a truck AT ALL is just being silly because any mods you make are done by assuming you know more than Engineers - and you can't because they are always right and always make the best decisions for the best product to fit our individual needs based on mass-market surveys.

Therefore, external trans filtration is a waste of money. It is proven by the fact that the 7.3 didn't come with one. No other argument is needed - and don't bring up that the 6.0 has one, because it isn't the 7.3 and it has a different transmission. Oh, and don't bother with personal experience. That is anecdotal evidence and proves nothing.

And stop with the trans temp gauges. The 7.3 doesn't need one, or the Engineers would have included one. The 6.0 needs one, so it has one. Case closed.

All that injector noise (cackle) that you all complain about? It was designed into the 7.3 on purpose. It doesn't matter that the T444E came with a regulated fuel return and doesn't cackle, the Engineers deliberately left it off. The extra noise was done purposely. It is not a flaw to be fixed, it is an Engineering decision to give us exactly what mass-market surveys said we wanted. Diesels ARE noisy, right?

Bypass oil filtration is another waste of money. All that research and all those papers you may have read about reducing wear don't apply to our 7.3s. If the 7.3 would benefit from a bypass filter, the Engineers would have included one.

Anything else you can think of to modify, forget it. You are wasting your time. The Engineers always do exactly what the 7.3 needs - so stop it!

I have to go now. I have a bunch of mods - which I was deluded enough to think actually worked - that need to be removed. I'm so looking forward to the proper 4R100 soft, slippery shifting again. The Engineers were right. I don't know what I was thinking.

 

If you have ever sat in a room with a group of experienced, dedicated design/development engineers as they go about their business, you would know that to be not far from the truth.

Actually, they were right. But that is another story not at all connected to tranny filtration. I don't want to take the thread off topic.

If you want to ask that question in another thread, I will answer it.

My 7.3 X has a gauge, but my '05 Dodge does not. Just an idiot light.

I could explain it to you further, but once again, I am going off topic.

 

I am also wondering how this got so negative? I don't disagree with anybody here, but how can extra filtration be a problem (other than some cost involved)?

I was wondering what happened when the engineers designed the 6.0L engine as they seem to work perfectly without any problems from what I have heard.

 

The question is whether external tranny filtration is necessary and if so, which filter to use, a Magnefine in-line filter or an externally plumbed spin-on filter.

The tide appears to be favoring maybe not necessary, but very desirable. So that leaves us with the question, which one to buy?