I was wondering if a 64 292 block and a 75 300 block adapte to the same size bell housing. I'm hoping to pull the 292 attach to a 4 speed and use the bell housing and attach my 300 engine to the same bell housing and 4 speed?
Thanks for all the great advice and expertise in advance....

Mitch

 

In a word: NO

The Y pattern was the end of flathead/Y Block commononality. The last dual pattern tranny stopped around 65 and that was Y/FE/SBF.

 

286 Merc; Thanks for delivering the kind word I was hoping not to here....
So now I guess I have to figure out which 4 speed I have and find another bell housing to use.
Thanks again for your reply.

Mitch

 

Mitch,

Depending on what you have & want, there are a few options. Is this in your '59 4x4? That makes it a tad more complicated. I'm assuming you have the side mounts on the bellhousing. Are you willing to do some fabrication, or are you looking for a bolt-in solution? Lay out what you have now, & where you want to go with it.

 

Well your right on the money; I'm planning on putting a 75 model 300 and hopefully a 4 speed into my 59 F100; I'm currently researching all my initially options, It has a 292, with no prior knowledge of its condition and capabilties. And adapting a 300 into a front mounted frame will be challenging enough, I plan on using a 70's style bronco engine mount perches, they seem to be the best option for now, I have consider the trails and error for trans mount, I'm hoping to be able to scavage a cross member to work. I will have the complete truck torn down to chassis level prior to conducting the swap. I got a NP635 trans hoping to mount to my 300.
But being a Shade Tree Mechanic with a lot of Leaves Missing can be difficult.....
Thanks for all your replies..

Mitch

 

Hmm. A couple of thoughts, initially.

It would probably be easiest to swap in the engine/trans/case as an assembly, if the existing case is mounted on the trans. You probably now have a Borg Warner T-98, but that's not a definite. If your case is divorced (I seem to recall they originally were, & used either an old Dana single speed or NP two-speed), then you can just do engine/trans. The T-98 usually has "T-98" cast into the left (US driver's side, that is) housing, but not always. It's no secret I'm not a particular fan of the T-98, but first gear isn't too bad for rockcrawling/slow speed, & it's fairly tough. I've been trying to kill mine for a year now so I can justify swapping in something else, and it refuses to die gracefully.

I don't know for certain what bell pattern the 223 had (original six in '59), but the 300 has the SBF pattern if I recall. I don't think (big emphasis on "think", don't know for sure) that any OE bellhousings exist that would have the SBF pattern, yet also have the older style trans bore for the trucks. The SBF wasn't in trucks until later, & the transmissions changed in, I believe, '65. Wild Bunch knows a lot more about the sticks than I do & hopefully he'll chime in. What I'm getting at is that I think you will either HAVE to swap the trans, OR stick with the 292, OR use an adapter to mate the old trans with a 300 bellhousing. Adapters can sometimes open a whole new can of worms. Trans-Dapt makes one that is listed for '49-'64 Ford trans (no specific ones), plus another that adapts '65-up bells to Jeep/Scout T-98s; maybe one of those will work. I suspect you'll need to call T-D directly to find out.

Fabricating a crossmember out of 2x2" tubing isn't real tough, if needed.

Sure we can't talk you into resurrecting the 292? They make great 4x4 engines...lots of low speed torque, & bulletproof with a little cae during assembly. Parts aren't particularly hard to get, or expensive. No, it's not exactly a Chebby $99 rebuild kit, but it's not horrible $$$ either. We kinda like 'em in here.

 

It sounds to me like you could get more involved with such a swap than you would by just building the 292. Homespun is right -- the 300" 6 shares the 289-302 bellhousing pattern, but neither the 300 or the car version, the 240, or any of the V8s came in trucks in '64 or before. This means that you will not have a bellhousing with rear motor mounts that will work with your 300. This then means that, even if you do the added crossmember for mid engine motor mounts, you still need a mount at the transmission, and the original T98 won't have that for you. Not only that, but the T98 will have a 7 1/8" input shaft, and the bellhousings for the 300" 6 are made for 6.5" input shaft length.

The separate transfer case and trans is good in a sense, because all you need to do is cut and splice driveshafts to mix and match, but it is bad because it limits your transmission choices to short truck transmissions (as opposed to car type transmissions with a rear mount and a longer tailshaft housing).

I can't say much more than this -- I am guessing that most of the transmission choices that you will find for your 300 inch 6 will offer only unit transfer case-transmission installations. But again, Homespun is correct in sending you to Trans-Dapt, who would have something you could use if anyone does.

Sure you don't want to build the Y Block? Seems like an easier way to go...

BTW, as I recall the 223 (old 6) bellhousing, it looks a lot like the Y Block bellhousing, using 4 bolts to mount the housing to the engine. I can't recall precisely, but I think that the top two bolts are closer together than the Y Block V8 bellhousing -- they will not interchange, and certainly neither is interchangeable with the 300" 6.

 

Thanks for all the ends & outs in regards to my attempt to do the impossible. As for the 300; I was told that it would be a great towing engine and since I pulled it out of my recently restored 65, I figure lets try and install it into my 59, But as you guys have enlighten my lack of knowledge I can see several challenges and headaches. As for the 292 engine it has been sitting for years untouch; It stills turn by hand cranking the crank, the PO pulled the carb off it and let it set with an open intake for a year or so. He stated it ran prior to him pulling the carb, But I questions that?
Since the truck originially was a 223 package, I figure pulling the 292 wouldn't take away from being a non-originial drive train. I do like the 292 capabilties and will probably invest in keeping it together.
Again thanks for all your help and I'm sure to post more questions later involving this project.

Mitch

 

Mitch you can use a bell from a 60's era F500 or larger with a 300 six . The front mount will work for you too. I did this swap about 10 years ago for a local farmer. He's still running that old truck, it was a 59/ 60 F350.

I hope this helps---------- Hotwrench

 

Thanks for the reply there Hotwrench; I was hoping to figure out which bellhousing that would adapte; I figure if I change the bell housing then the 4speed and transfer case should be usable as well. I'm just trying to figure this all out on paper before I commit to the project. I can't see how I could use the front engine mount, I have a set on the 300 engine mounts and figure on using the engine perches from a 70 era Bronco.
Thanks;

Mitch

 

Hot,

I'm not sure I'm following you. (Not arguing, just not following. ) THis bellhousing would have to have A) the longer depth of the pre' 65 transmissions B) older bore size C) The SBF 6- bolt block pattern D) the older (or dual) trans bolt pattern E) the side mounts on the bell.

The 215/223 are not eligible, likewise the 144/170/200/250. The 240 came out in '65, thus too late to have the side bell mounts. I may be wrong but I believe the 300 falls into that category as well. The only one that might be a possibility is the 262 six, which I've never seen, & I don't know when they came out.

Did your swap bell have the side mounts too?

 

Homespun: not to muddy the waters, but the T98 doesn come with any of the same transmission mount patterns that the cars do.

Generally, the Ford cars and light trucks used what I call the "Tall and Narrow" pattern from 1949 to 1964. Then in 65. Ford switch to the T&C pattern. Someone once told me why it is called the T&C, but I can't tell you what that stands for.

Neither of these patterns are much of an issue, because all of the later car and light truck transmissions either come with both patterns, or have room for the tall and narrow pattern to be drilled. For instance, I have a 1968 Mustang BW T10 in the garage, and it has both patterns. Right next to it is a 1980 F100 SROD (which has basically the same case as the toploader 4sp). It has a couple of the tall and narrow mount holes in it, and there is easily room for drilling the others.

The 5 liter Mustang boxes are different -- they have the 7 1/8" long input shaft and the T5 has a different mounting pattern all together. If you check out Mummert's site on the T5 adapter for the truck, you will get an idea of what this looks like.

But the heavy duty truck transmissions are a whole different pattern. They don't match any of the light or medium duty car/truck boxes, like the RUG 4sp, HEH 3sp (toploaders), T85, T89, or T10 4sp.

In addition, the hole in the bellhousing that takes the input bearing retainer is 5 1/8" in diameter (unlike the '49-'64 transmissions, which are 4.675" or the '65 and up transmissions, which are 4.85").

So for T98s and the HD T87 3sp, you need that HD truck bellhousing, and for the car/truck light and medium duty transmissions, the 3sp/3sp/OD bellhousing is called for. Mummert modifies one of these light/medium duty truck bellhousings for his T5 adapter.

 

With you so far, I'm just too lazy to type all that. I did forget that the light 3-speed was the old car pattern though. Shoulda been more specific on B & D.

I can't find the T-98 as being available in anything (Ford truck-wise, that is) after '65. OTOH I don't by any means have complete listings. If that's true, then theoretically there would be no bellhousing that would fit it & have the SBF block pattern, along with side mounts.

I'm hoping Hotwrench can dredge up a few details out of memory, especially about that front engine mount.

 

The truck I used for a donor was a 67 F500 300 / 4 spd. The trans was a bolt up to that bell if I remember the f500 trans was a B/W. The bell had side mts.
and the 300 was a front mt , with a little minor foolin around it fit like it was factory. As far as T&C goes when I worked for Ford they said it was Tall & Close meaning the pattern. I don't know if thats right or not. The front mount wwas similar too the 223 / 6 front mt. Ill try to remember more later.

Good Luck------- Hotwrench

 

T & C stands for Transmission & Chassis (Division). There is also a rumor that it stood for "Thompson and Collins, the two engineers who designed the Toploader", but it's not true (or at least the reference I have gives different names).

Hot, that's pretty interesting about that bell with the side mounts. I'm taking it that they were in the same location, had the same dimensions, etc. as the older trucks. Though I kinda hate to say it, it opens up a whole new possibility for swaps, because a SBF, Windsor, or 351C (or 400 FMX block, how's that for obscure!) could use it to be swapped into earlier trucks & retain the transmission.

I wonder if it was a six-cylinder item only? It's been quite a while since I've seen one of the '67 mediums, & it was a V-8, but I don't remember it having side mounts at all. I bet six cylinder mediums weren't very common at all, & I doubt the 289/302 was offered. Pretty rare....