1. Yes, it is flammable. It's propane! But any of 'em can catch fire, due to the oil in the system. Ever watch a Nascar event and seen an oil mist fire? Not pretty.

2. It does work very well as a retrofit. It gets along with R12 type mineral oil very well, and lowers pressures so you dont have to worry about a leak as much as you would with R12 or R134a.

3. Here's what the EPA has to say about it:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

4. The following states prohibit flammable refrigerants in motor vehicle air conditioners: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, and the District of Columbia.

5. I do believe it is perfectly safe to use in motor vehicle air conditioners. I personally believe the reason the EPA and certain states listed above have such a strong stance against it is that certain companies wouldn't make any money off of it. I would not hold it against anyone, even in the states listed above, to use it.

6. Ever look at a can of PC / Electronics spray duster? 1-1-1-2 Tetraflouroethane. CAS 811-97-2. That's right boys and girls, IT'S R134A!!! Vented directly into the atmosphere. The EPA allows this, where people can breathe the stuff, which is known to be harmful, but not venting it out of an air conditioner. Kind of shows you how the EPA really cares for our health. NOT. IMO, EPA =

 

Wow, I want some of what a few of y'all are smoking. There is so much misinformation being flung around here it's mind boggling.
If you read the info on the ES website it sounds like the best thing since sliced bread. It should, they're selling it. They're not gonna tell you anything bad.
As far as "The Big Lie", yes, It's bull****. But, R-12 is gone and it ain't coming back. It's been 13 years, Get over It.
R-12 and R-134A are neither poisonous or flammable. Both WILL displace oxygen when breathed in sufficient quantities, R12 moreso than R134.
The EPA doesn't give a crap how WELL an approved refrigerant works or if it damages your system. Their concern is about it's impact on the environment, period. They would approve water if someone asked them to test it as a refrigerant. They have agreed not to "approve" Envirosafe in cooperation with SAE and MACS because if is flammible in some concentrations. Unlike the fuel system, the AC plumbing is routed into the passenger compartment. If you develop a fuel leak, a smart person will stop and have it repaired, you can smell it. ES is fairly odorless so it's right in your face if the evaporator leaks and it should happen to ignite.
There is NO drop in replacement for R-12 in an R-12 system. There are drawbacks to ANY other refrigerant. The same goes for using alternates in R-22 or R-134 systems. There is no free lunch.
Blends (Envirosafe, Freeze-12, etc) will fractionate and the lighter gases that carry the lubricant will gather in the condenser and evaporator causing oil starvation of the compressor on startup. In the case of a small leak, these gases will leak out first, also causing compressor damage. You can't "top off" a system containing a blend, it screws up the mixture. They both cool very well, but that's only part of the formula.
R-134 is the preferred replacement for R12 because it is inert and a properly done conversion will yield normal system operation on an R12 system in most vehicles. Notice I said "properly done", do some homework. Read the info from MACS and SAE along with info from professionals who do this stuff for a living, like Auto A/C Information Forum

It's your car, use what you want. Just get the right info first.
If you use R-134 fittings with ES, don't bring it into my shop, though. If I ruin an R134 container and it's contents I'll have to hurt someone.

 

You say we shouldn't believe the ES website and then you post YOUR opinion whilst being in the repair field???? Isn't that being a bit hypocritical. What makes you so believable an not the ES site? And you say, quote "R-12 and R-134A are neither poisonous or flammable" Doesn't causing testicular cancer make R134a poisonous and toxic?? A recent DOD test of R134a toxicity nearly killed the test subject! The truth is that the industry doesn't want a cheap refridgerant for obviou$ rea$on$. It's common knowledge in consumer advocate circles that in the area of automotive AC repairs it always advisable a second or third opinion because of all the ripoffs. So no wonder someone "in the business" wouldn't have anything good to say about a cheaper and more efficient refridgerant on the market. As far as a fire hazard if you get hit hard enough to rupture the refridgerant in your AC system I do believe you are going to have alot more concern about that 20+ gallons of gas under your butt than tha 25 ounces of propane blend refridgerant. I've witnesses two accidents in which R12 and R134a systems respectivly flashed from head-on collisions and it was the oil in the system that flashed so don't count out any ruptured AC system incident being flame free. I neither sell HC's nor do I repair AC systems for a living but I've done my own AC repairs since the 1960's as well as my own recharging and I have used HC's for 10 years now and have yet to have an AC system fail in my personal vehicles because of HC refridgerant failure. And if you do have a leak that requires you to fix and recharge it is going to be far cheaper to recharge than either R12 or R134a nowadays. If someone could find a way to power Auto AC's by solar power you can just bet then that the "industry" would be helter-skelter trying to find a way to charge us for sunshine! And would someone please point out any of the negative environmental impact of HC's.....please????

 

I didn't say not to believe the ES website, If you look back at my post you will see that I said that nobody is going to tell you the downside of their product. I also don't expect anyone to believe what I say based solely on my opinion.

"It's common knowledge in consumer advocate circles that in the area of automotive AC repairs it always advisable a second or third opinion because of all the ripoffs." This is always advisable when considering any automotive repair., or home repair, or....

"So no wonder someone "in the business" wouldn't have anything good to say about a cheaper and more efficient refridgerant on the market." Why would that be? If I had a GOOD alternative that was cheaper and more efficient to offer a customer I would be a fool not to offer it as it would lead to more business. Nice try at a cheap shot.

"Doesn't causing testicular cancer make R134a poisonous and toxic?? A recent DOD test of R134a toxicity nearly killed the test subject!" Due to suffocation in a small sealed area, it displaces oxygen like any other non oxygen bearing gas. R-12 was the same way. How many people died from inhaling it during all of the years it was used? As far as the cancer risk, gasoline is a known carcinogen. The difference is that most will breathe more gas fumes than refrigerant over the course of their lives. BTW, arent most hydrocarbons carcinogenic?

" As far as a fire hazard if you get hit hard enough to rupture the refridgerant in your AC system I do believe you are going to have alot more concern about that 20+ gallons of gas under your butt than tha 25 ounces of propane blend refridgerant. I've witnesses two accidents in which R12 and R134a systems respectivly flashed from head-on collisions and it was the oil in the system that flashed so don't count out any ruptured AC system incident being flame free."
The concern about the flammability of ES isn't necessarily during a collision. Any pressurized system containing oil can cause a fire in a collision. (Although why would you want to add a combustible gas to an already potentially hazardous situation?) The concern is leaks into the passenger compartment not necessarily during a collision. Evaporators can and do leak, ask anyone who has owned a Chrysler product or a Mercedes. ES would directly into the passenger compertment where it could reach a combustible concentration. This is unlike the fuel system which is NOT routed through the interior. The comparison to gasoline is apples to oranges.

"The truth is that the industry doesn't want a cheap refridgerant for obviou$ rea$on$." Arent companies that make ES, Freeze-12, and other blends part of the "indu$try? They are out to take your money too, they don't give their product away. By the way, what are the "obviou$ reason$"? If there was a viable cheap alternative don't you think the car manufacturers would be tripping over each other to use it? I guess it's a big conspiracy to rip off the little guy. Hmm, where did I put my tinfoil hat?

"And would someone please point out any of the negative environmental impact of HC's.....please????" You'll have to look elsewhere. Don't know, don't care. I still use the "evil" R-12.<!-- / message --><!-- no sigs except when logged in -->

 

Why so defensive??? If the proverbial shoe fits then wear it! I've been 56 years doing my own repair work simply because I got tired of "ripped off" being the norm not the exception! You'd find it impossible to find anyone who hasn't been ripped off at least once if they've had any kind of vehicle repairs performed at any time. If the people taking that personal would police their profession/industry it wouldn't be the norm now would it. I can't think of any cheaper reliable repair that is an honest to goodness beneficial to the customer that any repair facility uses unless it benefits them, not the consumer! Name one. You say you'd jump right on a cheap repair/fix as it would create more business? It wouldn't make any money making sense to inevitably perform more labor in order to profit the same bottom line. It doesn't and never will happen. And the big car manufactures jumping at a cheap alternative...they don't upset the apple cart if what they're doing is profitable. Example, why do you think they went to front wheel drive vehicles? CHEAPER TO MANUFACTURE IS WHY! It surely isn't anything to do with performance or handling. They don't care what the buyer prefers. That is why they are lagging behind the imports and closing plants when Honda is opening new ones right here in the midwest. Big business has one mission and thats bottom line profit. Their attitude towards the consumer is that of the golden goose or cash cow. And that very attitude has trickled down to the individual private shop with the honest shop being the exception now instead of the rule. If honesty was the industry policy then there'd be no use for consumer law or even the pathetic BBB. I've handled arbitration cases in 11 states with Ford, GM, DC and a couple of Imports and it always ends up the same when the dust settled. Their blatant arrogance causes them to wonder who the heck does this consumer think they are......questioning them and not just rolling over and playing dead like their supposed to do???? And I have searched law reviews all over this planet and still have yet to find one instance of someone injured or maimed by an HC refridgerant explosion or flash fire..........hmm, wonder what the ratio is to gasoline fire fatalities in vehicular accidents.......and the obviou$ rea$on$ mentioned above is.....MONEY.....imagine that. One doesn't have to be a quantum physics scientist to figure out why the people in the AC Chemical and repair industry don't want a cheap replacement to the status quo....it's money. And you say you don't care about the environmental impact and still use R12, well, it's the very thing you use in your AC system that started the whole thing whether it's rightly or wrongly to blame....at $35-$45 a can. Keep your attitude...big business loves it.

 

Not at all defensive, but I detect a bit in your reply. If it makes you feel better then, OK you win. Me and all my counterparts are crooks in the back pocket of big business. I sit in a candle lit room at night with a bunch of other Techs at the altar of Big Business and pray for for ways to take more of my customers money without having to offer them (gasp) actual service. I've got 3 muffler bearing jobs coming in tomorrow, hmm..........maybe I can soak them for changing their winter tire air to summer air. Aaaahhhh, I smell another cruise to the Bahamas.

 

Your response is just what I would expect. I've sat across from so many people so like you it isn't even remotely humerous anymore. Like I said if your an honest craftsman than you don't take it personal to what I posted but if otherwise than your cute comments just support my posts in general. Enjoy.

 

I'll put it very simply here: Dupont (and other refrigerant manufacturers) dont, cant, and wont make money selling propane.

Also, as I stated above, we can buy and vent all the Tetrafluoroethane (R134a) we want if it's in a PC duster spray can. But if it's in a motor vehicle air conditioner, we have to pay to have a shop reclaim it. Think about that.

 

[QUOTE=rusty70f100]I'll put it very simply here: Dupont (and other refrigerant manufacturers) dont, cant, and wont make money selling propane.
QUOTE]

Well somebody would. I don't care if cars ran on water or were cooled with carbon, IMHO they would find a way to make lots of money at it. It might take them sometime but it would be done.

You don't need to look any further than at oil to know that.

A good discussion is always a good read. Explain your position and let the other have his say since that is how others learn.

 

"I'll put it very simply here: Dupont (and other refrigerant manufacturers) dont, cant, and wont make money selling propane."
But they will have to shell out millions in settlements if one person is injured in a fire caused by a flammible refrigerant. Systems would have to be redesigned to make their use safe. As a replacement in a current system, HCs are a huge liability risk.

"Also, as I stated above, we can buy and vent all the Tetrafluoroethane (R134a) we want if it's in a PC duster spray can. But if it's in a motor vehicle air conditioner, we have to pay to have a shop reclaim it. Think about that."
Keep in mind that I have to buy the expensive equipment to recover it. I also have to pay for disposal of recovered refrigerants that have been mixed with other alternatives. The list goes on and on...

I don't agree with the hoops we have to jump through today, the phase out of good refrigerants due to "possible" enviromental concerns, and EPA regulations. It makes my job more difficult and costs my customers more money.
The main point made previously seems to be that "big business" won't allow competing, less expensive refrigerants gain a foothold and the EPA is behind them. Check out the chart on this page. It's a list of "approved" refrigerants for mobile applications. (Don;t bother reading the text as it could be fodder for more debate. It's just the first place I found the EPA chart).
http://www.heco.net/TheTruth.htm
You will see that there are numerous refrigerants available from smaller companies, some even contain HCs, that are perfectly legal to use. Some of them work very well if a conversion is done correctly.
Most shops won't use them, either because customers don't want to do the work necessary to make an R-12 system work properly with them ,or the risk of system damage from fractionation is too great to be able to offer a warranty. Parts manufacturers usually won't warrant parts used with anything except R-12 and R-134. They also require a completely separate set of tools and equipment for recovery and charging. HC refrigerants just add safety concerns to an already complex batch of issues.

 

I couldn't agree more. That is well said and right on the money.

 

Thanks dude. Remember that when you take your car in to get the AC pulled down or charged.
Shop around though. I've heard of places charging as much as $100 to evacuate a DIY job and $80\LB of R-134 to recharge. That's nothing but robbery, even at half the price.
AC work is never "cheap", there are few $30 repairs. It's a major, high tolerance system on your car. Repairs need to be done correctly, and that means $$. Do some shopping though. You'll quickly see the gougers. Just remember, if the price is too good to be true, it probably is.
Regards, Tom

 

Oh I have nothing against you or your shop! Sorry if it came across that way. It's the current regulations that I have a problem with. You're just doing what you can within the law, the way it is.

That's why I included the "wont" part!

 

Try envirosafe.com

 

Oh, absolutely no offense taken. (especially from a guy that drives a 70 F-100, my first and favorite Ford truck) I practice one of the 2 biggest "perceived ripoff" trades in automotive repair, the other being transmission repair. Done properly, neither is "cheap" and it's hard to actually quantify the price without the explanation turning into a technical seminar. Unfortunately, there is gouging going on in both areas also. Your best defense is to be informed and the internet can be your best source of information. There are folks in all areas of auto repair that contribute to Forums to help DIYers. They don't get paid for their input or have anything to gain except the satisfaction of helping out a guy trying to fix his car. Here's a great one for AC: http://www.autoacforum.com/ .
Our buddy ptt has since posted the same diatribe on 2 other AC forums that I frequent looking for a fight about ES and why the Government won't let it be legal. (almost verbatim what he posted here, it could have been copy and paste) There is a segment of society that thrives on confrontation and conspiracy. On the surface, his facts seem reasonable, but a little research takes the wind out of them.
Don't totally believe me or him or anybody else for that matter. Use the WWW as it was intended and research your questions, and don't take anything you read as gospel. If you use your power of reasoning and deduction along with your personal experience to filter out the BS and misinformation, you will find the truth about a lot of things. (Sorry, the Meaning of Life isn't out there Yet. I've looked. )