Hi guys, I need some advice on my new project. I've got an old '77 ford that is my bush truck/mud bogger and right now its got a very ill 360 in it. A friend of mine gave me a good running '80 460 that i am going to swap into it. I have the bellhousing, flywheel clutch, motor mounts, and everything to make it a complete swap. BUT... yesterday a friend of mine gave me 2 brand new turbos from caterpillar 3116 marine engines. So im thinking they would be pretty awesome on my 460. I've been reading up on holley carbs and i know basically what i have to do to the carb to make it work. I just posted on the 460 forum to ask if i can flip the manifolds over if they will bolt up or not. If they will i will build adaptors to bolt the turbos to the manifolds. The exhaust isnt an issue, i will just run stacks. The intake box and tubing i will have to fabricate. I will also have to fabricate oil lines to the turbos. Will my stock oil pump have enough volume to feed the 2 turbos and the engine? Another dillema is my turbos do now have wastegates built it. Can i build a simple wastegate into my adaptors? Can i substitute a wastgate with a blow off valve? Is there somewhere i can find out if i need 2 turbos or should i just put one on? They seem fairly small but then a 3116 is rated at 215 hp. I want to do this as low budget as possible but i also want it to work and i dont really want to blow up my 460. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

 

They'll flip, but you have some port matching to do.

Oil pump - I would say no, or maybe. A high flow replacement pump is a reasonable upgrade considering how expensive coked turbos are to replace. Especially after you fabricate everything for these particular turbos.

You can fabricate wastegates in no problem. There are numerous aftermarket solutions.

Wastegates allow the exhaust pressure to blow past the turbine housings, therefore allowing the turbos to slow down.

Blow-off valves allow the compressed air to escape the intake manifold before the air reaches the intake runners. This doesn't slow the turbos down, and is useful for higher RPM shifting.

Simpler systems get by just fine with wastegates, and more complicated, but better performing systems use both wastegates and BOV.

Never run a turbo system with a BOV and without a wastegate.

If the turbos you have are the 3116 factory cat turbos, two actually a little undersized, but since your 460 is not going to be revving deep into the 5000's it will just give you a nice "snap" off the line, assuming everything is tuned correctly.

 

Thanks for all the help. Ive got a couple more questions. How do i go about fabricating wastegates? And, my turbos are from 3116 marine applications. I compared them to a regular 3116 industrial and they seem larger, I believe it is because the marines were rated for much higher power due to more efficient cooling. I'll try to get some pics of them in my gallery tonight. thanks again for any help.

 

Actually I typed the wrong number in on SiS. The turbos are off 3116 gen set engines.

 

Personally, I would buy a premade wastegate, and fabricate a mounting for it. If you're running twin turbos, you can use two wastegates, or tie the two sides together then put the pair of turbos after that, with the one wastegate in the middle.

Here is an ebay auction of an external wastegate. Probably not what you want but it at least will give you an idea of how it mounts... which you would fabricate on your exhaust manifolds:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HKS-3...33047028QQrdZ1

Again, I'm posting that link just to give you an idea. My twin turbo setup will be a pair of these mounted just before the turbos, and the outputs of the two wastegates will just merge with the downpipes post-turbo into the same exhaust as the turbos. Not to difficult to fabricate, just need to slice up some tubing with a tubing notcher and weld away.

The wastegates I have are HKS and 45-ish mm inlets/outlets, and they open at 3psi of boost, but I'll be feeding them "controlled" source of boost off the intake manifold therefore I can open them and close them electronically "at will" at any pressure I want over 3psi. Below psi they won't open even if I wanted them to as that's the internal spring pressure.

You can see from the picture above, it's basically a hole with a flange around it, nothing special. Whatever you choose to buy, make sure you order the gasket with it if it's not included, and use the gasket as a template for the flange you're going to make. A piece of 1/2 mild steel is easy to make - use a bimetal hole saw from home depot to drill the larger exhaust bore, and then normal drill bits (I prefer dewalt ti-coated pilot bits, they self center and last forever, even when boring holes "dry") to drill the bolt holes. Drill undersized and tap accordingly.

Here are some pictures of the start of my turbo manifolds:

http://frederic.midimonkey.com/f350-...manifolds.html

If you don't want to look at the whole page, here is the 460 head, the undrilled header plate (it's drilled now, just wasn't at the time of the picture) and the jig I made so I have the proper location set for the T4 turbo flange:




And here is a picture of one of the completed collectors, made of a turbo flange I cut out with an oxy/acetelyne torch welded to sections of notched black pipe:



Once I have some free time (ha ha) I have to bolt the turbo flange back on the jig, and weld all the sections of tubing I've already cut to go between these collectors and the header plate which at this point is already drilled.

what I do is cut the sections out, and fit them together using electrical tape, then hand grind them for a closer fit, since I cut them slightly oversized in length to give me a slight bit of extra material for handfitting. The electrical tape holds the individual sections in place until it comes time to tack weld them together (with my mig welder), then once everything is tacked, I'll take them off the head and off the jig, and do final welds sealing everything up.

To prevent mig ***** (splatter) from sticking all over the inside of the pipe, as I don't want them falling off later and blasted into the turbine housing, I'll coat the inside of the pipes with either rustoleum (without primer) or pam cooking spray. Solves the problem nicely.

 

Awesome, your stuff looks really good. Do you think my upside down manifold idea will work? I know its not going to be the best setup but i want to complete this on a budget and then if my first system works good I will consider building a nicer system on a new engine in one of my nice trucks. Last month i rebuilt a turbo setup off of a 3516 Cat 2500 hp cat engine. It was series high and low speed turbos. 2 huge ones feeding 2 good sized ones that fed jacket water aftercoolers. They used one large wastegate on only one of the large low speed charge turbos. It was a really interesting project and thats what got me hooked on turbocharging one of my old fords. I like the idea of 2 small turbos but maybe i should trade in my 2 small ones for one large one off a 3406E on highway truck engine. Then i could just build a crossover pipe system and it might simplify things for me. Lots of things to consider on a project like this.

 

I did upside down manifolds on my old 75 Dodge pickup. I flipped them upside down and swapped sides, so the turbos would be close to the firewall and not interfere with the engine's accessories. The manifolds that came with the engine had the outlets at the back of the manifold, unlike Ford which has one almost in the middle, and the other somewhat towards the end.

Of course you can move accessories too.

That's why I chose to make these from scratch... more work, more hassle, but at least I can put the turbos where i want them (over the wheel wells next to the valve covers) where there is plenty of space. Originally, I was going to move some accessories around, but since I'll have dual alternators there just isn't enough places to "stick" accessories. I have a diesel vaccum pump to mount also.

 

Yeah now im considering building manifolds. Those ones your building look good. what size and wall thinkness tubing are you using?

 

I'm using "black pipe" that is 1.75" ID, 0.125" wall, which essentially is ERW tubing with a paint splashed on it. It's convienently purchased in Home Depot, Lowes, plumbing supply places - i.e. just about anywhere.

I like the fact that it's painted, because then welding slag/splatter is easier to remove after mig welding because as the splatter lands on the painted surfaces, it burns the paint and gets contaminated, meaning it doesn't stick to well to the rest of the project. A poke with a screwdriver and 95% of that gunk comes right off.

I prefer mild steel, thicker wall tubing over thinner wall, stainless as stainless really can't be welded with my mig welder unless I attach shielding gas and do the mig welding "the right way". I prefer flux-core welding because it's simpler, more portable, and quicker to set up and tear down when I'm done for the day.

 

Cool i'll have to look into getting some pipe. I have a flux core and a gas shielded mig and after using the gas shield i never use the flux core unless i have to weld outside where there is wind. the gas shield makes such a nice clean weld where as the flux core leaves tons of weld splatter everywhere. I'm at school right now so i cant really start the project till i go home in a month but i may go buy a set of 460 manifolds from the junk yard and weld up some adaptors when i have time after class. I may also take some measurements at the junk yard and start fabricating a box to stick the carb into.

 

I don't mind flux core. I agree, welding indoors makes for a quick headache but my 2-car garage has three doors - two front, one back, so I open one front and the back one each a foot, and put fans in front of the gaps and that removes most of the smoke. At least for a while where I can spend a few hours without choking. I do prefer to weld outdoors, and do so 95% of the time. But, I don't like welding outside when it's 10 degrees or when it's raining.

Splatter has an easy solution.. spray your parts with the cheapest paint you can find, and don't do any prep before application. It will barely stick, and the splatter won't stick either. Very little anyway. Then just sand or grind where you're about to weld, and you're beads will fall into the gaps very nicely. Pam cooking spray also works well, but I kept getting yelled at for stealing my wife's cooking stuff.

BTW, the official welding anti-splatter spray, smells just like pam cooking spray to me.