Hi,

I have a mint 77 F150 with a stock 460. I've been told that HP is around 235. This sounds pretty weak to me. The truck has factory dual exhuast with NO cats, I've recently replaced the factory OEM mufflers with a new pair of Ravin 55 series. (This did help)

I've also been told that they (Ford) got by without the catalytic converters by retarding the timing. Does anyone know what exactly that means? Is there a different set of timing gears and chain that would make a big difference? Can anyone explain why?

If there was one single thing that would make the biggest impact on horsepower for this year (1977), what would it be? Cam? Timing set? Carb? Heads?

Obviously, all of the above would produce the most HP, But I'm looking to do a little bit at a time. Thanks in advance!

Ed

 

Ed,
You've got a beauty on you're hands. The lightest truck with the biggest motor! Is this beast a 4x4? What's the rear end ratio?
Traditionally, Fords respond well to exhaust improvements. For the "Bang vs. Buck" this is where you should start, Headers! They bolt on. Probally dual 2-1/2" out the back exiting in front of the rear tires. After that move to your cam. Don't go over a .46 lift cam or you'll run out of valve springs clearance. Cam duration is probally where your question about "timing" comes in. Ford was fighting with emission standards during these years and started fudging numbers to make things add up. The result was an engine you can't trust with respect to "TDC" Top Dead Center. When installing an after market cam always dial in your cam. The "dial in" kits are available with the cam but you should "pay a pro" to dial in your cam if your not a gear head. The cam is the heart of your motor and will change it's very nature. The 460 does not respond well to large duration cams and should be limited to no more than 290 degrees duration. Secondly, your question about timing may be referring to ignition timing. By advancing your distributor you can increase horse power, but at what expense? If your timing is advanced too far, your screwed! When advancing your timing, listen to your motor, Is it "Pinging"? Is it hard to start hot? Does the truck run hot? Did you burn the motor up? Seroiusly, running high octane fuel can allow you to advance the timing. Running the air/fuel mixture "carb" rich will increase horsepower and supress preignition "knocking". When I say "running rich" I'm not talking about adjusting the idle screws, I'm talking about rejetting the carb and that can be difficult especially if you live above 2000ft. elevation. If you decide to play with the carb, check your spark plugs color for confirmation of fuel mixture. Black plugs tell you your too rich "too much fuel". You'll know if your lean because you'll be slow and the vehicle will run hot on the highway. Well, i've out done myself on this one! If you got anymore question, lay'em on me.
Kingfisher

 

Kingfisher,

Thanks for the reply. I found the truck at an antique auto museum. 44,000 original miles, One owner with original factory invoice from December 1976. It's a 2wd. with 3.88 rear end. they call it a "Trailer Special". Not sure about the size of the carb, it's a 4 barrel though.

I'm curious about the Timing set thing. are there differences in gears and chains?, should any cam change be accompanied by a different sized timing set?.

Anyway, since the truck responded nicely to new high output mufflers, I'll probably take your advice and look at headers next.

Ed

 

Ed,
The 3.88 rear end is a blessing for drag racing, a sin for gas mileage.
Secondly, when you buy a cam, buy a timing chain set: Cam gear, Crank gear and the chain. If you buy a Ford SVO set you'll be able to make rough advances or retards of the cam 4,6,8 degrees. My recommendation, Don't! Just buy a normal double steel roller timing chain and you'll be good to go. By retarding or advancing the cam you can change the effective powerband of the cam, but if you do, you'll see an overall loss in performance. Cams are designed to run in precise coordination with the crankshaft and screwing around with there timing does not help. "Dialing in" a cam brings the cam into exact timing with the crank. When you buy a radical cam, you'll find that the powerband moves off the idle. That means, that you'll see reduce power off an idle and then as the engine revs, it'll come on strong. Many performance enthusiasts will install a "stall converter" which is nothing more than a transmission torque converter that does not engage until the engine revs to say 2400RPMs, whereas a factory torque converter normally starts to engage at 1200RPMs.
Thirdly, Did you have questions about distributor timing? By rotating the distributor clockwise or counter clockwise you can either advance or retard your ignition timing. I can't remember which way does what. Again, watch for signs of too much advance if your goig to play that game.
Good Luck,
Kingfisher

 

Converter or no converter, the cams in the 429/460 engines were retarded 8 crankshaft degrees starting in ’72 (or was that ’73). That's one reason why they got doggy. Anyway, when you buy a replacement cam, get also a new timing set for a pre ’72 engine. The late model replacement timing sets have the retard built in them. Also be careful with advancing or retarding your new cam, a lot of them have around 4 degrees advance already ground in. Advancing the cam increases the low-end torque while reducing the high-end horsepower, retarding it does the opposite.

Barry

 

I've already advanced the ignition timing to the point where any more would cause problems.

I'm wondering if I could get by with just the pre-72 timing set and leave the factory cam in place. Do you think it would be an appreciable difference? or would I just be better off with a new cam while I'm at it?

IF I do have a new cam installed, It would probably be a mild increase over stock. I'm assuming I should be able to get 300HP out of this thing without TOO many major upgrades!

I could just be delusional as well. ;^)

 

If BBB is corect, you should get 300 HP easily. That's less than 1 HP per CID, not unreasonable for street performance? 8 degrees is a huge advance/retard, so you should see a huge gain. The SVO timing chain set will allow you to advance/retard as you please. Find out what the factory cam lift/duration is, and I'll try and consult from there. Remember, the valve train will be your next restriction. Have Fun, Good Luck
KingFisher

 

Just a clarification, the cam is retarded 4 degrees (8 crankshaft). The timing chain sprocket on the crankshaft is retarded in relation to the crank itself. '73 is when this started, according to Ford Performance. They also say that just putting on a "straight up" timing sprocket makes a marked improvement in performance.

Barry

 

Thanks again for the informative replies!

If I understand this correctly, It sounds like new sprockets have the potential to make a world of difference. The next question would be where to buy these pre-73 sprockets?

Also, will it be obvious how to install (i.e. Are they marked as to how they go on the shaft)? or do they need to be degreed, i.e, let someone who knows what they're doing complete the work?

P.S. Is "Ford Performance" an on-line thing, a manual, or what?

Ed

 

My guess is that your motor has never been apart. Buy a new timing chain and gears for a pre 73 460 CID motor. Get the steel gears as the Nylon coated sets do not have the life expectancy that Ford truck owners demand. You will have to remove the front of the motor: water pump/fan, timing chain cover, ect. Once you get that far, inspect your replacement gear set. you will notice a dot on both the cam gear and crank gear. These dots are to face one another during initial installation. That is, the crank gear dot will be at the top and the cam gear dot will be at the bottom. There will be instructions with the replacement set.
Good Luck, Have Fun,
King Fisher

 

Well, I called my local NAPA dealer and asked for a 1971 Timing set (Gears and chain)for a 460, and here's what they have in stock:

Manufacturer is "Clyes" part number 103013. Crank sprocket is iron. Price is $48.98. Do you suppose that this will suffice, or should I keep looking for a better product?

Thanks in advance.
Ed

 

Well, I went ahead and installed a new timing set from Ford Performance. Took me most of two days to complete! The crankshaft gear is a multi-position. I set it to zero, Then lined up the dot on the cam gear with the keyed part of the crank gear.

Here's the result: A bit more snort out of the hole, but overall, not worth the effort. I'm not convinced I gained much of anything as far as passing, etc. is concerned. The old set was the nylon style cam gear and the chain was really loose though.

A bit dissapointing, to say the least. I wonder now if I should need to re-adjust ignition timing after these changes. Or would it make any difference?

Ed

 

Definitely recheck the ignition timing! Also I was wondering how those ravin (?) mufflers sound. Are they much louder at idle/cruise?

1977 Ford F-100
400m/c6/4:11/Gear Vender O.D.
Crane hydralic roller, forged, ported polished,Deamon,Edlebrock, yada, yada, yada
280,000 miles
Stock on the outside
modified/rebuilt everything

 

I don't have a timing light, so what I did in the past (at the suggestion of someone on this forum)was to advance timing, test drive for pings, and then back it off slightly.(wing it). Perhaps I should have it checked with the light? I do notice that it cranks harder while starting now.

The Ravin mufflers I went with are the 55 series. Ravin offers a 33, 55 and 77, 33 being the loudest. The idle and cruising difference is slightly noticeable, but not obnoxious at all. You do notice it when you put your foot into it though (Sound Difference as well as performance). Personally, I thought they would be much louder.

 

I`m in the same boat with you here, and I`m finding this discussion full of the little gems of wisdom I need.
I`m building a 76 460 for my 70 F100. Did you hear anything about
using a 429 timing gear set in your quest? I bought this engine as scrap. I`m trying to identify the cam and get a profile card for it. I`m concerned about valve to piston clearance.
I`d appreciate any insight, as it sounds like you`ve been down this road.
Thanks
Craig