My comment is based on actual experience with a Suzuki race bike. CH-4 Delo was ok and the CH-4+ product caused clutch slippage. Moly is the main difference. Mild street users may not have a problem, but the issue is there. The result was similar to friction modified "energy conserving" oil.

Jim

 

I love amsoil, and am not a dealer either. I have it in my Cobra (engine, trans, rearend) my truck (trans, transfer case and front diff) and my snowmobile. In my opinion, its great stuff, and worth the extra $$ just for the piece of mind.

 

I tried it once and didn't notice anything good or bad. Just got tired of UPS. Started using Mobil one in my F150 (FX4 w/5.4) and never had any problems either. Went 10,000 on oil changes (Blackstone analysis) and everything was fine. Used to get it on sale at Pep Boys.

Will be using Shell 5W-40 in the F250 6.0 shortly.

 

I applaud this post but as we know by now....A person convinced against their will is just of the same opinion still....

 

I have been using Amsoil for about 10-12 years and wouldn't change for anything.
I have been scrolling along and see alot of talk, good and bad so here is my story.

I got started using 80w-90 in Mazda trannys. I had 2 go out one spring, both were bearing failure and I determined it was due to the gear lube being too thick in the winter.
I knew about Amsoil but had never used it but I changed over to it (as insurance), never had another tranny problem.

I was running a F-700 truck and two Mazda B series (plus a spare) the 3 routes put 60-70k a year on each truck. The F-700 held 10qts and the Mazdas 4qts. I was going 5k on oil changes. I had to change at least 3 trucks every 4 weeks (aprox 5 gal oil) plus occasionally the spare and our personal truck and that really got old. I don't know which was worse, doing the changes or having to dispose of all the oil.

Anyway I decided to give their motor oil a try on one, I liked it and did the other. I put off the F-700 for awhile. It had a 370ci on LP and always used oil (new engines or old) so I didn't want to spend the money on oil. I eventually did switch it over, it ended up using about 1/3 of the oil it did on regular oil. Not sure why, according to the "theory" it was cleaner and sealed up better, I did run a bypass filter on it . I sold it in 2000 with 725k on it (no it wasn't the orig engine(s) I changed them out at 200k for dependability).

Anyway I have been using their oil in the Mazdas and now Rangers (still going 70k a year on two trucks), I run it 25k and use their filters and change them at 12,500. I have had no problems. My only thing was with the Mazdas the oil would get pretty nasty (they had carbs and ran rich) so I would dump it at 18-20k sometimes. With fuel injection the oil looks much better for longer.
My 98 Ranger has 195k on it and is still going, my wifes 94 has 130k and is doing fine.
I have sold a slew of Mazdas with mileages in the 250-450k range.

You probably think I am nuts, I am happy.
I think the 25k is plenty.
I have a friend who runs a route, he bought a new Dodge Cummins this year. He is running Amsoil with 2 filts and planning on just doing analysis and NOT changing till MAYBE 100k. That seems nuts to me, I guess it's just perspective.

Everyone has to make their choice, I made mine and you make yours, I will tell you my story but won't tell you what oil to run in your truck, that's up to you.

 

We're lucky to be able to argue which synthetic is best.

In 1973 I started using Amsoil 10-40 100% synthetic in my '68 GTO. Amsoil may have been the only company making the stuff back then. Anyone remember? Castrol, Mobil, Pennsoil and all the other big brands weren't, but that didn't stop them from claiming their dino oil was the best oil made.

So much for the "big brand name" being superior to MLM companies.

Anyhow, I used Amsoil's engine, transmission and rear end oil in my GTO for 27 years and over 100,000 hard miles of drag racing, redlining, high speed runs, clutch dumping, trailer towing and assorted other abuse. Oil consumption (and power) was the same at the end of those 27 years, about 1,000 miles per quart. When I was using the dino oil, consumption was 400 miles per quart.

During World War II massive bombing cut off Germany's oil production so they experimented with synthetic oil. The first application was in jet engines. Germany's main operational jet fighter during WW II was the Me 262, and its jet engines lasted all of about 5 -10 hours in between overhauls. This was due to the poor performance of the dino oil being used. When synthetic oil was put in these engines, the time between overhauls was dramatically increased. The modern reliable jet engine is only possible because of synthetic oil.

Synthetic oil is superior to dino oil in every respect but price.

I've found the Amsoil attacks interesting, because I'd like to see the product held up to scrutiny. I'd like to get off to the right start with my new F-350. The lack of the API seal is a valid point. But I wouldn't conclude it should constitute the final say about a company that may have more kinds of synthetic lubes than any other and developed them earlier than most. They've had maybe a twenty year head start on the big brands.

All companies have to advertize and all puff up their products. Is Amsoil's any more objectionable that the television and print ads used by the majors? By and large, the Amsoil information is more detailed and useful than what you see on TV and in print media.

For years, the way to avoid the customer markup on Amsoil products was to pay the small annual fee and become a "Dealer". Most "Dealers" such as I bought just for ourselves. The few times I ever recommended Amsoil to any friends I told them to become a dealer and get the lower prices rather than buy from me. This was such a common practice that Amsoil now has a "Preferred Customer" arrangement for people like me, which now allows me to state for the record that I am not a Amsoil Dealer.

When I need a product immediately, I go to a stocking Dealer and gladly pay the markup. If I plan ahead, I order by telephone and save money. Seems reasonable enough.

So like I said earlier, ain't it nice we have so many choices in synthetic oil that we can dump on Amsoil? But I'll bet a lot of the dumpers were using dino oil for many years when they could have been using synthetic instead.

Sometime the only way a better product can come to market is through multi level marketing.

 

You asked about Amsoils advertizing and is it more objectionable than the others- yes, by a lot. Most of the info you have posted came from the Amsoil website in their slimball advertizing. Standard Oil produced the first PAO synthetic basestocks in 1928. You won't find that on the Amsoil website. The largest producer of PAO basestock was Gulf Oil company in 1954, before Amzoil was created, and they only had one customer- Uncle Sam. Amsoil would have you believe that they were the first with PAO basestock technology and they are the oldest and most experienced in the applications of same. Have they bothered to tell you that Amzoil at one time was an ester based product? Were there failures? I know of two. But, Amsoil can advertize that they have never paid any claim against their product because that is just the exact fact- they haven't paid and are not most likely to pay any claim for any reason. I don't have any problems with Amsoils products as long as the buyer is aware of the FULL Amsoil recommended procedures in using their products. Analysis to trend the engine is required. Don't read much about that on their website unless you look at the small print. Changing the filter every 5,000 miles and adding a qt is in the fine print. By the time you have driven the "warranteed" 25,000 miles, you have already changed the oil in the engine one qt at a time but still have dirty, used oil. And sometimes, the analysis doesn't come back so good even at 5,000 miles. But here is something for you think about. Dino oils have made fantastic gains while synthetics are the same ho-hum they've always been. It is not uncommon today to have a decent SM rated oil in a modern Triton engine with a very acceptable UOA at 10,000 or even 15,000 miles. Are the oils that much better? In some regards- yes. But the real factor in longer OCIs is the cleaner burning engines we now have. There is not near the amount of trash washed into the oil like the older engines. Add the cleaner burning fuels we have nowadays and it's fairly easy to see why we all are guilty of changing perfectly good oil out. Even old Wallys oil can be run to the five digit mileage and still have enough left over to be considered good to go. Amsoil products- some are remarkable like the Series 3000 or the HDD. Amsoils advertizing and just outright lies- unacceptable.

 

Maybe someone is confused? Maybe I didn't understand that?

That didn't seem correct to me , I just went and checked their site and that is one of their biggest things.
Amsoil was the first company to have a API rated synthetic oil.
As far as I know they all are rated.

If you pay attention you will notice that truck and auto makers are going synthetic.

I first noticed it with some large truck trannies a few years back, I think Allison now makes you use synthetic to get an extended warrantee.
Most Ford rear ends use Synthetic, I see news bits here and there on "extending" oil change intervals in Europe and other similar news.
I had a clip about all the school busses in one of the Carolinas will be doing oil analysis instead of regular changes.
Many hot cars (like Vets) seem to be coming out with synthetic oil in them.

I collect old quart oil cans and signs. It has always bothered me that companies like Kendall were bragging in the 40s-50s that they had a 2000 mile oil! Wow technology at work….Am I to believe that after 50 years we have just got to 3000 miles? When you think about that it does seem ridiculous. Everyone likes to hammer oil companies claiming some sort of conspiracy about gas and diesel prices. It seems more likely that the fix is in on 3000 mile oil changes.

A couple years back I was buying a pup from a guy who turned out to be a quick lube owner. We got to talking oil and stuff. It came down to this. The various oil companies (Valvoline, Castrol etc.) would bid to get their oil in his QL. I don’t mean bid their price per qt down but bid an up front cash payment to the owner up. This is how the owner decided which oil he would "feature" for the year. He said they were offering him aprox $45,000 up front, plus for every gal of oil they would give him a free filter, so those chepo filters don’t even cost the place anything. Must be money in motor oil.
Change, change, change.

Just something to think about.

 

Wow Flash, it seems you have some repressed anger there or something.

I was writing my last one and just saw yours.

Here are some corrections for you.

5,000 mile filter changes?
I have always read 12,500 and do that.

As far as the big secret about other companies making syn oils earlier I don't think it's a secret. As I said above Amsoil appears to be the first API rated oil, not the first ever.

The company story is the owner was a fighter pilot and thought if the jets needed syn oil because it was so good then he thought he could make it for autos....So if his plane was using it and that was before he started the company then it is obvious that syn oil was around before Amsoil.

As far as ester or pao.
Things improve with time, who cares what it was back whenever, they reformulate it all the time, all oil companies do. The regular companies do it to keep up with the auto maker specs. That's why you don't run type F atf in your new Ford, atf has changed several times. Amsoil brags that they are always tweaking their oils to make it better, sounds good to me.

You make it sound so bad, there people who run that oil oil virtually forever using analysis so it can't be too bad now can it? I have been happy with the 25k deal for quite some time.

You do your thang and I will do mine.

 

If you will go back to the Amsoil website, the only oil that they have API Approved is the XL 7500 which is a dino synthetic, like Syntec. The others will have a misleading statement like " Exceeds API requirements". And they are exactly correct. Their formualtions exceeds the limits set by the API. The amount of ZDDP, by far, exceeds the maximum limits set by API. So what does this mean to you? If your vehicle is still in warranty and you should have any oil related failure, you're on your own as Amsoil does not have the API certification with the exception of the XL7500. So how many times does it happen? Not many and it's your engine and your money and you can certainly roll the dice like the grown up that you are. So what else could go wrong? Well, API says that the limits on ZDDP have been lowered so as to protect the emmisions system on your engine. ZDDP is suspected to cause damage, especially the cats, and the sensors. I have not seen any REAL science in this regards. So here is a scenario for you. Its been raining and you have taken the truck on very short trips and not getting the engine up to temp for any long periods. Now we have condensation forming in the engine. Because of the short trips, we have introduced a significant amount of water. The oil will have the means to handle the water BUT, now the rain stops and we can get back to work and here we go down the hiway and as this water is burning off, so does some of the ZDDP. How much burns off with the water can ruin your emmissions system. It is just plain simple that if you start out with more, you have more to lose but the control systems can't handle it. So it comes back again, your engine, your money, you're a big boy, roll the dice.

Don't try to compare the Europeans with our API standards. They do not have the emmissions systems that we have. They can load all of the ZDDP they want and not have to worry about it. As time goes on, I expect that you will be buying motor oil like ATF fluid. You will buy an oil for your particular engine and it will not interchange with another engine. So you can go to Wallys and get some for your GM 4.3 and for your 5.4 Ford but it won't be the same in the bottle.

 

It's nice that Standard Oil had sythetic oil developed in 1928 but did they make it available to the consumer?

Ditto re Gulf. How nice for Uncle Sam.

My point was Amsoil put the stuff in our hands early on.

The last time I fastened one of those huge bypass monstrosities to my GTO's fender, it cracked it. And who wants to bother with oil analysis. I've always changed at 3,000 and figured I was getting better protection with synthetic. It cut my oil consumption in half and that 400 HO Pontiac engine was running as good 100,000 miles later as it was the day I got it. I got my money's worth.

I knew Amsoil started out as an ester product. So what? It still was far superior to dino oil.

Dino oil may be improved, but does it have the high temperature oxidation points that synthetic does?

Any vehicle equipped with a turbo can have coking take place in the oil passages feeding the bearing on the exhaust side of the turbo. Coking will choke off the oil passage and bearing failure will result. The high oxidization point of sythetic oil (400 degrees plus) means you don't have to run the engine as long to cool off the turbo housing as much before shutting it off. Which is more in line with real world driver behavior.

How many people have idled their turbo diesel for five minutes after pulling off the highway with a heavy trailer into a gas station before turning it off? Yeah, let that poor oil fry in that red hot exhaust housing and turn to black crud like in the inside of your oven. It seems to me than anyone running a turbo absolutely should run synthetic.

It's been a while since I looked into the subject, but in the sixties cars had 165 and 180 dagree thermostats, and dino oil didn't get over 200 degrees, at which point viscosity deterioration accelerates. Today oil normally runs over 200 degrees along with coolant temperatures.

Is this new and improved dino oil up to this? Synthetic is.

I really wouldn't worry about what brand of synthetic you use. If one brand makes the viscosity recommended by the manufacturer and another brand doesn't, that is a more important consideration than the brand name. For example my LS-7 needs 10-40 synthetic. Amsoil makes it, Mobil doesn't.

Some other odds and ends: Amsoil sticks better to the internals when the car hasn't been used for a while (not saying others don't). Mobil One is more waterly, grade for grade, and my engine builder noted there is little left on parts during tear downs.

Which brings up another point: One 10 - 30 oil may not be exactly the same as another. The test data show some to be on the thinner side of any particular viscosity and some are on the thicker. The differences can be quite substantial. The test data bore out the observation that grade for grade Mobil One was thinner than Amsoil. And other brands were thicker. Amsoil seemed to be in the middle of the range of variance.

Maybe someone wants an 5 - 20 that's a little thicker, but still rated 5 -20. Or maybe not. For those that are interested there's data that let's you compare. I believe its based on flow rates at certain temperatures. One temperature to establish the "5" rating, a higher temperature to establish the "20" rating.

So if you want a synthetic that's a little thicker or thinner than normal, or you just want normal, there is variance between brands that you can look into.

 

Flash, I think you are spliting hairs here.

Many oil companies use the line "meets or exceeds" .
By "exceeding" it means better.

Would you buy the brake pads marked "meets manufacturer specs" or the one that says "exceeds" them?

I have some name brand quart cans that say "meets minumin specs", that's the cheap crap like Sinclair Econoil.

Here is a link-pic of the oil I use. Notice the API seal.
How long could they get away putting that on the bottle if it didn't meet or exceed an API rating


Because you seem to not be able to get the point to well I am adding some other photo/links to some other of their oils so maybe you can see your error.



I noticed that not all have it on the label, or I can't see it but I believe that all meet or exceed API ratings. When you read the specs all the ones I see mention API specs........

Here is a scenerio for you.
I think you are trying to pick this apart and you just can't quit.

Amsoil has been making and selling this stuff for 30 some years by my math.
If there were a bunch of problems some lawyer or government agency would have reamed them good by now.
Product liability, class action suits, false advertising, defective products, misleading the public, some attorney general trying to make a name for himself or just a good old fashioned "I want to sue you" case.

You keep arguing, I am going to bed.

 

Amen. This stuff always seems to get more complicated.

 

The API seal has a circle within a circle. Even as a user of Amsoil for thirty-two years, I must admit the graphic on their bottle is clearly not the API seal and seems intended to mislead.

 

bud,


give me a break. that is not the api starburst , it is there to mislead and works. also the api has a list of every oil certified and guess what only 1 amsoil product is on the list .