Good timing Jake.

I'm a newbie also, and have another update.

The truck did start a few times last week, but I was too scared to take it anywhere, and sure enough it would never restart.

I used my Fluke on the VC connector, got a good reading for the GPs, but couldn't find anything on the other pins (this is with the motor cranking w/ the key etc.)


So I hauled it into town and the stealership.


And here is what they said:

(drum roll please.....)


It is my GPs, AND the GP relay, AND the cam sensor (if you are new to this thread somewhere on page one I replaced the cam sensor. It is brand new).

That is what the diagnostic revealed......

$909 to fix it.






I have my doubts about that diagnosis, to say the least. As stated, the CPS is new and I KNOW that the GP is working. I tested it. It is turning on, it is turning off, there is 12V at the VC connector.

Comments?

I have NO IDEA what to do know. Any suggestions? Anyone? Bueller??



1. Pay them the $909 and laugh knowing it still will not start once they replace all those parts. Then cry when they just add more $$ to the $909, or force me to pay $909 to haul away a truck that won't start.
2. Tow it home and replace the GPs. How hard is this? I'm no neophyte, recently R&Red the motor from a JD backhoe, but did not enjoy the experience. Will I similarly not enjoy R&Ring my GPs?
2a. Tow it home and change out the (grrrr) Cam Sensor again? Recall that changing it the first time saw no change. Also, last time I tried it I'm absolutely certain that the tach moved (put one new battery and charged the dog**** out of the other one).
2c. Tow it home and re-test the GP relay?
3. Tow it home and set it on fire. I bet it'll start then.



Anybody have any theories as to why I'm could not find any voltage (other than 12v for GPs) at the valve cover during cranking? Or any voltage at any of the pins on the IDM?


This is driving me crazy.

 

Oh yeah.

Forgot one thing.

I'm fairly certain my PSD will fire right up w/ the GPs disconnected at the relay. Anyone else, or am I misremembering things somehow?

Finally, it was 65 degrees here today, no attempt to start whatsoever. WTS light is going on, you can HEAR the relay clicking etc., tested it last week, voltage at covers blah blah blah

 

I just had another thought.


Is it possible that, w/ me jacking w/ the GP relay (I disconnected it during some of my testing), and replacing the CPS, is what is causing their scan to come up w/ "GPs, GP relay, CPS?"

??

I have many, many, many questions for Joe the service mgr. at Expressway Ford.

 

NMRancher,
I'm new to troubleshooting the psd fuel sys. but,on post #27 you said you found relay-was picking but no voltage at IDM.Does v only come from that relay?A set of contacts could give you an intermittent problem for sure.Just read your posts for 1st. time tonight-I might have missed something.

 

I don't know, another poster informed me that there was a relay for the IDM there, this was verified by the shop manual I bought, but w/out this forum I'd never know which relay...

Anywho yes the relay was getting 12v and also appeared to be functioning (I also swapped out this relay a few times).

And no I couldn't detect any voltage whatsoever anywhere on the IDM harness connector.

Not sure what you mean by "A set of contacts could give you an intermittent problem for sure." Maybe you mean a bad contact or bad ground. I was gettin a good ground at the IDM.

Otherwise I'm still lost.


But thank you for the response.

 

Well, hell. From start to finish, I'm lost on what you have done. If you think your not getting fuel.....shim the FPR with a bb. Bump your psi up to 65 or 70 psi. See if that helps. You can check in on the shrader valve with a tire psi gauge. It's messy but you can do it. And I'm gonna take some serious heat for this but.........leave your key on, let the glow plugs cycle, wait a good 2 to 5 minutes. Spray a little shot of starting fluid and see if it fires. That is a serious no, no on these engines because if you spray starting fluid in there and turn the key on and the glow plugs ignite. BOOM bad things man. Bad things! But this is what I do "Me only, my bad judgement only. Despite the warnings." Just being clear, this is not good. My glow plugs have never worked on my truck, I know this to be true. When it gets cold, and I forgot to plug the truck in and I gotta go. I leave the key on hit it with a shot of starting fluid and No.3 comes to life, every time. But again, starting fluid and PSD is not good. Hell, have you tried pluging it in? Other than that, I don't know. But I feel for you, this problem sucks. I hope this helps in some way. But there are way to many people on this forum with a ton of knowledge to let this go so long. Surely someone here can help, so bring it guys. Start with flaming me for the starting fluid and let your minds flow the knowledge I know is here. Good luck NM I'm pulling for you.

RubberDuck

 

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Enjoy FTE....and
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…..See you on the boards.

 

I haven't been in on this post for a while, but I can tell you that the glow plugs aren't needed at 65 degrees. Maybe I missed it, but what kind of codes (if any) are there?

 

Thanks.

I've got an Innova ODBII scanner, which reads nothing.

I'm not convinced this truck is ODBII compliant, I don't think the scanner works in this case...

 

Hey, thanks for that perspective Duck. I've got several cans of ether lyin' around. Never pointed one at my PSD though, but I may try what you are suggesting.

On page one is where I checked, and found, good pressure at the filter.

Check back to this thread, at some point I'm sure to stumble across the actual problem.



Thanks for the comments about the GPs guys. I'm pretty sure I drove this truck around for a few months w/ the GPR disconnected back when I first bought this truck.



I just KNEW that taking it to a dealer was a bad idea.

 

NM,I found some info in a TSB book,I tried to scan the page but couldn't get it in my post.

Anyway it's title: driveability-reduced power-no start-7.3 di turbo-idm module-NO DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES!

A "no start" or "reduced power" condition may occur intermittently on some vehicles.This may be caused by a short in the injector circuits or the IDM module.

Service Procedure
1 If, after comp.of all the steps in the PS 7.3 Diagnostic Giude,you are unable to pin point the cause,proceed w/ following steps.

2 Disconnect the IDM Module and using a DVOM, measure resistance between the injector circuits and ground.If it is less than 5 ohms res.,repair the short and retest.

3 If concern still exists,replace IDM Module.


I thought the no codes part was interesting.If I find something else I post it.

Brian

 

You are the man Brian, that is some good info.

I tried to have a tow company pick up my truck at the stealership and they wouldn't release it to him.

They want me to pay a $70 diagnostics fee.


I am not making this up. Somehow, I managed to not lose my temper. Now I have to go down there and lose my temper in person.

The svc. mgr. didn't even reply when I told him the truck did not even need GPs to start, and the CPS was brand new. Just silence, followed by another reference to the $70, followed by me stating the diagnostic was, um, inaccurate, followed by more silence.



Anyway so now my truck is being held hostage, once I get it back I'll test the IDM, GPs, and injector circuits for resistance.
















If I ever mention taking anything to any dealership ever, get down here and slap me silly until I change my mind.

 

NMRancher, please be sure and let us know what fixed your truck. I haven't commented because I haven't had a lot to add to resolving the problem. I would agree with RubberDuck and big inch, I'm not convinced it's your glow plugs. I've read too many post of trucks starting with bad GP relays (meaning no GPs). Especially in your mild climate. It may not like to start, but I think it would start without GPs.

In all your troubleshooting, you may have caused some codes to be logged and that may be what the dealership is reading. From what I've read, some code readers don't always work so well with these trucks, so your personal reader may not have read them.

The CPS may be a problem, even though you just replaced it. I've not read of a bad one from International, but there's always a first. Did they give you the right one? There are 2 different part numbers based on engine serial number. The serial number split happened in '97, so you should have the one for the lower serial numbers. I ask because when I got my CPS from International, the parts person was unaware of the serial number split and said "I just always give them this one". He was lucky and right in my case.

I don't know all the things that cause the PCM (Powertrain Command Module) to not tell the IDM (Injector Drive Module) to fire the injectors. I know it takes a good CPS to get 2 things: 1. the RPMs. The PCM will not fire the injectors below, I beleive 180-200 RPMs. (That can also be battery and starter related) 2. The PCM also gets the cyclinder location from the CPS so it knows when to fire which injector. One of the other things that cause the PCM not to fire the injectors is a bad #22 fuse (fuel heater), which you've already been through. Maybe someone else has more info. cause I think there's at least like 5 or 6 things that cause the PCM not to fire the injectors through the IDM. (I'm still learning too) I know you tried your IDM in another truck and it worked fine.

Good luck and keep us posted. I'm still not clear on one thing. When it wouldn't start, did you have any smoke coming out the exhaust. I may have missed that in all the posts.

 

Thanks for the reply stroker.

Good analysis of the PCM/IDM. The tach definitely moved the last time I tried to start it, one new 850 amp battery, and the old one completely charged up, it was spinning the starter motor faster than I've ever heard it spin. Nada.

I'm leaning towards a short or, maybe the PCM has an intermittent glitch. Maybe even some kind of intermittent glitch w/ the IDM.

When I get it back I want to test resistance at the IDM and between IDM and injectors. What is weird is the relay is powering up but I couldn't read any voltage on the IDM. Does the PCM turn on the IDM via this relay? If so then it ain't the PCM, still I'm troubled by the "voltage at relay, but not at IDM" thing.


I agree w/ you about the codes the dealership scanner, or whatever, spit out. It had to have done so due to my tinkering w/ them. I KNOW the GPR works.

No smoke at all when trying to start, it either fires INSTANTLY or not at all.

CPS from Navistar: I just used the same PN as the one that was in the truck, which I installed about 18 months ago. What is funny is I left the old one ON THE FRICKIN' SEAT. Guess the "technician" didn't see that.

 

To every body in general, I am getting a little nervous about NMRanchers' problem and it not being solved. I bought my '97 a little over a year ago, and 20k later I have had 1 problem besides an oil leak behind driver side head, and it was a vacuum pump that went out on an elk hunt last Dec. I carry a spare CPS(International lower serial#) and spare fuel filter. Now I'm antsy about taking it anywhere away from immediate help until we find out what is causing NMRs' problem. Sure like this truck, been good to me. Thanks, I will check back soon.