Timing is all off!
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New User
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From: Lynden USA
Timing is all off!
I have a 78 F-150 with a 351M. I replaced the timing set and installed a new one. I swear I got the timing marks right (close together, mark on cam sprocket on bottom, mark on crank sprocket on top). Wouldn't start until I advanced the timing as much as possible, then it fired right up, but underload it smokes and knocks. The timing was at about 30+ deg BTDC when it ran well. Pulled the valve cover off and cranked the engine and right after TDC the exhaust valve started opening so I'm pretty sure the valve timing is right. While engine is running, I tried to retard the timing and at about 15 BTDC it stumbles and dies. I can't figure out what is wrong. Anybody have any ideas? I'm open to ANY.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
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From: Comox Valley, Canada
Timing is all off!
How about the distributor advance stuck??? Or maybe the distributor is off? Sparkplug wires on correctly??
Where is the rotor button in relation to number 1 tower when the timing marks are lined up on the balancer and #1 is at TDC?
Sparky
Where is the rotor button in relation to number 1 tower when the timing marks are lined up on the balancer and #1 is at TDC?
Sparky
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Joined: Oct 2001
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Timing is all off!
Its pretty easy to get the gears 1 tooth off which would be a humongeous amount on the valve timing. One of the marks will be on a tooth on the gear and the other will be on a notch between the teeth. You have to line up the tooth on the one gear with the notch in the other for it to be right.
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Timing is all off!
What kind of timing set did you use? some after market sets (performance type) have different symbols representing different degree's of timing for different typs of aplications, and its easy to match up the wrong two symbols when you replace your set. This would throw the timing off and give you fits trying to find out why.
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New User
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Lynden USA
Timing is all off!
I have bought a DynaGear OEM replacement timing set that only has one keyway. I didn't take the sparkplug wires off. I set the crank at TDC and made sure the roter was pointed at the #1 spark tower. When I replaced the timing set I never took out the distributor so I don't think (though I could be very wrong)the cam/distributor are out of sync. I was looking at some pictures of performance timing sets and saw that the crank gear has 9 keyways. That's a pretty large range of valve timing. That would seem to say that if I was off by only a tooth or so the thing would still run (especially since it's already 4degrees off from the factory I could have easily advanced it by accident). It just baffles me that the ignition timing has to be so advanced, 30+BTDC, for it to idle. Ignoring valve timing (though that could still be the problem) is there any other condition that would have the same symptoms ie vacuume leak, carb is toast, etc. I'm feeling a little
Thanks guys,and Ford girls if you reply
Thanks guys,and Ford girls if you reply
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,637
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From: Albuquerque
Timing is all off!
You might want to check your hormoanic balancer to see if the outer ring has spun.
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New User
Joined: Jan 2008
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Timing is all off!
>I have a 78 F-150 with a 351M. I replaced the timing set and
>installed a new one. I swear I got the timing marks right
>(close together, mark on cam sprocket on bottom, mark on
>crank sprocket on top). Wouldn't start until I advanced the
>timing as much as possible, then it fired right up, but
>underload it smokes and knocks. The timing was at about 30+
>deg BTDC when it ran well. Pulled the valve cover off and
>cranked the engine and right after TDC the exhaust valve
>started opening so I'm pretty sure the valve timing is
>right. While engine is running, I tried to retard the timing
>and at about 15 BTDC it stumbles and dies. I can't figure
>out what is wrong. Anybody have any ideas? I'm open to
>ANY.
When you Removed the old gears and chain,were the timing mark Dots lined up,then without turning either crank or cam you install the new ones ?
Doing this, insures proper installation.
[i][font color=blue]Dennis[/font][i]
[font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font]
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[font color=blue]78 F-150 429CJ,Silver,Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
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>installed a new one. I swear I got the timing marks right
>(close together, mark on cam sprocket on bottom, mark on
>crank sprocket on top). Wouldn't start until I advanced the
>timing as much as possible, then it fired right up, but
>underload it smokes and knocks. The timing was at about 30+
>deg BTDC when it ran well. Pulled the valve cover off and
>cranked the engine and right after TDC the exhaust valve
>started opening so I'm pretty sure the valve timing is
>right. While engine is running, I tried to retard the timing
>and at about 15 BTDC it stumbles and dies. I can't figure
>out what is wrong. Anybody have any ideas? I'm open to
>ANY.
When you Removed the old gears and chain,were the timing mark Dots lined up,then without turning either crank or cam you install the new ones ?
Doing this, insures proper installation.
[i][font color=blue]Dennis[/font][i]
[font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font]
http://www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/Minimorleytruck.JPG
[font color=red]If New Ford Parts Is What You're Cravin',
Then Buy Them HERE,
At Motorhaven!
[/font]
http://www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/Mil1ion.html
[font color =green] Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
"I'm Saving My Memory For When I Develop Alzheimer's" [/font]
[font color=blue]78 F-150 429CJ,Silver,Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon [/font]
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New User
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Lynden USA
Timing is all off!
Well, I checked the valve timing and the bad part is the timing is right on. I put it back together and started her up again. Same thing, won't run unless the timing is way advanced, like 30+degrees BTDC. I can't advance it any more because the coolant neck is in the way. Any thoughts will be entertained. I'm taking her to the shop on Tuesday if I can't get her running. Why would an engine want to run so far advanced and not run at all below 10degrees BTDC?
New User
Joined: Jan 2008
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Timing is all off!
I'm almost positive you are one tooth off with the distributor.
[i][font color=blue]Dennis[/font][i]
[font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font]
http://www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/Minimorleytruck.JPG
[font color=red]If New Ford Parts Is What You're Cravin',
Then Buy Them HERE,
At Motorhaven!
[/font]
http://www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/Mil1ion.html
[font color =green] Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
"I'm Saving My Memory For When I Develop Alzheimer's" [/font]
[font color=blue]78 F-150 429CJ,Silver,Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon [/font]
[i][font color=blue]Dennis[/font][i]
[font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font]
http://www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/Minimorleytruck.JPG
[font color=red]If New Ford Parts Is What You're Cravin',
Then Buy Them HERE,
At Motorhaven!
[/font]
http://www.clubfte.com/users/mil1ion/Mil1ion.html
[font color =green] Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
"I'm Saving My Memory For When I Develop Alzheimer's" [/font]
[font color=blue]78 F-150 429CJ,Silver,Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon [/font]
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,415
Likes: 3
From: Comox Valley, Canada
Timing is all off!
I am with Dennis. But instead of moving the distributor try moving the sparkplug wires all, I always get the wrong direction unless I am doing it myself 
, counterclockwise one tower. Now if you can time it using the timing marks the distributor or timimg gear set is off.
But if it fixes it and it runs good...........
Sparky
, counterclockwise one tower. Now if you can time it using the timing marks the distributor or timimg gear set is off.But if it fixes it and it runs good...........
Sparky
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 249
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From: TX
Timing is all off!
No matter where you place the plug wires or distro you are still going to be in excess of 30 deg for it to run. It has to be either the indecator or the dampner pully for it to be off 30 deg using a timing gun.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,415
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From: Comox Valley, Canada
Timing is all off!
>No matter where you place the plug wires or distro you are
>still going to be in excess of 30 deg for it to run. It has
>to be either the indecator or the dampner pully for it to be
>off 30 deg using a timing gun.
You are most correct The marks will be the same....where was my brain that time
However moving the wires will cure the distributor hitting on the thermostat elbow Thus allowing more movement for timing by ear or vacuum.
Which gets back to if the timing set marks are lined up the balancer must be wrong or the indicator bent.
Sparky
>still going to be in excess of 30 deg for it to run. It has
>to be either the indecator or the dampner pully for it to be
>off 30 deg using a timing gun.
You are most correct
The marks will be the same....where was my brain that time However moving the wires will cure the distributor hitting on the thermostat elbow
Thus allowing more movement for timing by ear or vacuum.Which gets back to if the timing set marks are lined up the balancer must be wrong or the indicator bent.
Sparky
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 22,436
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From: Louisville,Ky.
Timing is all off!
Did you remove the intake manifold or carb? It sounds like you could have a vac leak. The high initial timing would help cover up a lean condition. Also, Does your hose going to the vac advance have vacuum on it at an idle? It shouldn't. It should only have it when you open that carb. throttle to accelerate. If you have vac. there at an idle, the timing will retard when you accelerate causing the engine to lose power. set the timing to 12BTC with the vac line off. hook it up and check it again. it should not change at an idle. If it is the same, slightly rev the engine while watching the timing with your light. It should advance as soon as you start to rev the engine. If it doesn't, and you are getting vac to the vac hose, you may either have a bad vac advance or a siezed up advance plate. This would explain why you need soo much advance to get any power.
with the timing at 30 will it turn over hot? It should drag the starter with it that high.
with the timing at 30 will it turn over hot? It should drag the starter with it that high.