Transmission Cooler Return Line
More Turbo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 722
Likes: 22
From: New Orleans to San Diego
Good point Forrest i'm thinking that having a friend add SP fluid while i am working the cooler line and have a visual on the rate of fluid coming out i can tell my friend how slow or fast to add fluid.
Let say i do pan 1st, then add fluid up top while removing 7 qts. or so from the cooler line with truck on, then have friend turn truck off as i reattach cooler line.
Am i okay that way with out introducing air into the system?
Let say i do pan 1st, then add fluid up top while removing 7 qts. or so from the cooler line with truck on, then have friend turn truck off as i reattach cooler line.
Am i okay that way with out introducing air into the system?
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
From: All Over
Originally Posted by Forest
Bear Hunter:
My background is filtration. I deal a great deal with automotive filtration issues--especially on the lubrication side. I also know enough about auto transmissions to be dangerous--don't claim to be an expert.
However, my limited experience tells me that the lubrication fluid and the control circuit fluid are one in the same. That is why clean transmission oil is so critical. I also have first-hand experience with contamination in hydraulic lines. It is always there, the question is what do you do about it. Ideally, all contaminants are transported and then deposited in the filter(s). Generally, however, this is not true. A build-up in "quiet zones" in the transmission is normal. What is not normal is aeration of the fluid. The sudden accelerations / velocities of the aerated oil blowing through the lines could be detrimental and negatively impact the downstream cleanliness of control circuits.
If you do a complete flush, which is to be applauded in principle, I would try to avoid running the transmission until air is observed. It would be better to come up with a precise way to meter oil into the transmission at the same rate it is coming out. Then you could stop before air is observed.
My background is filtration. I deal a great deal with automotive filtration issues--especially on the lubrication side. I also know enough about auto transmissions to be dangerous--don't claim to be an expert.
However, my limited experience tells me that the lubrication fluid and the control circuit fluid are one in the same. That is why clean transmission oil is so critical. I also have first-hand experience with contamination in hydraulic lines. It is always there, the question is what do you do about it. Ideally, all contaminants are transported and then deposited in the filter(s). Generally, however, this is not true. A build-up in "quiet zones" in the transmission is normal. What is not normal is aeration of the fluid. The sudden accelerations / velocities of the aerated oil blowing through the lines could be detrimental and negatively impact the downstream cleanliness of control circuits.
If you do a complete flush, which is to be applauded in principle, I would try to avoid running the transmission until air is observed. It would be better to come up with a precise way to meter oil into the transmission at the same rate it is coming out. Then you could stop before air is observed.
As for metering the oil into the transmission at the same rate it is coming out....I am planning to disconnect at the cooler as I stated above and having it pumped out into a measured container (that will be marked in 1 Quart increments). That way I can keep my eye on it while I simultaneously add more MERCRON SP at the same rate it is coming out. I'll have the wife in the drivers seat ready to shut off the ignition. I'll be shooting to pump 6qts out...but if it looks like its not flowing freely then I'll have her shut down and adjust the fluid level as appropriate through the drain in the tranny pan.
Let me ask you this...I am told that when I disconnect the return line by the cooler it will INITIALLY sputter a little then it will start to flow freely...do you see any adverse effects from that?
Thanks,
Last edited by Bear Hunter; Nov 4, 2005 at 01:34 PM.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
From: All Over
Originally Posted by LOOnatic
Good point Forrest i'm thinking that having a friend add SP fluid while i am working the cooler line and have a visual on the rate of fluid coming out i can tell my friend how slow or fast to add fluid.
Let say i do pan 1st, then add fluid up top while removing 7 qts. or so from the cooler line with truck on, then have friend turn truck off as i reattach cooler line.
Am i okay that way with out introducing air into the system?
Let say i do pan 1st, then add fluid up top while removing 7 qts. or so from the cooler line with truck on, then have friend turn truck off as i reattach cooler line.
Am i okay that way with out introducing air into the system?
Last edited by Bear Hunter; Nov 4, 2005 at 01:40 PM.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,198
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa, OK
I don't see any adverse effect from air being sputtered out at the beginning. I'm not sure why there is air in those
You know that, eventually, you need to change out a total of 17.5 quarts of transmission fluid. You can get 6 - 7 just by pulling the drain plug. I don't know how much gets trapped in the cooler circuit.
You know that, eventually, you need to change out a total of 17.5 quarts of transmission fluid. You can get 6 - 7 just by pulling the drain plug. I don't know how much gets trapped in the cooler circuit.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
From: All Over
Forest...thanks brother for responding and for your help,
The way it was explained to me was exactly what you stated...the tranny holds 17.5qts..
I might be over simplifiying a little, but my reasoning based off the info I recieved is as follows:
1. Tranny capacity 17.5
2. Drain pan 7-8 quarts (inspect magnet, replace inline filter)
3. this leaves approx 10 quarts old fluid
4. Refill with 10 quarts of new (just enough to where it will not come out of the vents when the truck is running and to get ahead of the pump reducing the possibility of air)
Shoot for pumping out 6 quarts IAW flow rates posted earlier...while simultaneously adding in accordance with the pump rate. If it's flowing nice and everything is going well I'll keep going but do not expect to get any more than 8 quarts out.
5. Adjust level through the pan based off how much was pumped out and how much I put in as it was happening (because it will essentially be overfilled at that point..only for this procedure though)
6. Change my Transfer Case fluid which is totally seperate and use 2 quarts of MERCRON ATF.
What do you think?
The way it was explained to me was exactly what you stated...the tranny holds 17.5qts..
I might be over simplifiying a little, but my reasoning based off the info I recieved is as follows:
1. Tranny capacity 17.5
2. Drain pan 7-8 quarts (inspect magnet, replace inline filter)
3. this leaves approx 10 quarts old fluid
4. Refill with 10 quarts of new (just enough to where it will not come out of the vents when the truck is running and to get ahead of the pump reducing the possibility of air)
Shoot for pumping out 6 quarts IAW flow rates posted earlier...while simultaneously adding in accordance with the pump rate. If it's flowing nice and everything is going well I'll keep going but do not expect to get any more than 8 quarts out.
5. Adjust level through the pan based off how much was pumped out and how much I put in as it was happening (because it will essentially be overfilled at that point..only for this procedure though)
6. Change my Transfer Case fluid which is totally seperate and use 2 quarts of MERCRON ATF.
What do you think?
More Turbo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 722
Likes: 22
From: New Orleans to San Diego
Okay to specify i meant to :
1) with truck hot and turned off drain trans pan at plug. Pull pan and change filter in pan. Reinstall pan
2) change inline filter up front.
3) add about 10 qts to the system.
4) co-ordinate me undoing cooler line in font with assistant who will start truck and then be ready to add fluid after i get close to removing the extra 3 qts. from the first filling.
5) if things are working i will try to cycle as much new fluid through the system at it will allow.Hopefully the first excess 3 qts and maybe 3-6 more. Assistant must have plenty of opened bottles ready to go.
6) as assistant turns truck off i will reinstall line to cooler.
7) check for leaks and fluid levels to finish.
Forrest says that system total volume is 17.5 qts. so a pan draining (7?) plus 9-10 more from front flushing would be pretty good for an at-home job.
A real thorough job may be to do all this and then drive truck and drain pan again if so inclined.
1) with truck hot and turned off drain trans pan at plug. Pull pan and change filter in pan. Reinstall pan
2) change inline filter up front.
3) add about 10 qts to the system.
4) co-ordinate me undoing cooler line in font with assistant who will start truck and then be ready to add fluid after i get close to removing the extra 3 qts. from the first filling.
5) if things are working i will try to cycle as much new fluid through the system at it will allow.Hopefully the first excess 3 qts and maybe 3-6 more. Assistant must have plenty of opened bottles ready to go.
6) as assistant turns truck off i will reinstall line to cooler.
7) check for leaks and fluid levels to finish.
Forrest says that system total volume is 17.5 qts. so a pan draining (7?) plus 9-10 more from front flushing would be pretty good for an at-home job.
A real thorough job may be to do all this and then drive truck and drain pan again if so inclined.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,198
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa, OK
OK. I understand what you all want to do, but I fail to see that these techniques are any better than drain / fill 3 or 4 times...
What the "flushing" machines do is put in "new" fluid into the downstream side of a "break" in the cooling line while simultaneously taking out the "old" fluid on the upstream side of the "break". The trick is putting it in at the same rate you take it out.
I don't know where to round this equipment up, but here are a couple of ideas:
1) Tank/bladder. A simple tank with a bladder in it (clean fluid on one side) could be used for this. The "old" fluid would lift the bladder (or piston) and push the "new" fluid out. This would keep the flow rates equal. Another trick is starting/stopping the process. For this, you could use a 4-way valve. One position of the valve would be "straight" through, the second position would loop through the "tank".
2) Coupled gear pumps. Again using the "old" fluid as the "driver", push it through a small gear pump/motor. The output shaft of gear motor would drive an identical small pump that would pump in the "new" oil at the same rate.
As I think these two ideas are beyond the normal home shop, I kind of fall back on just doing 3-4 drain / refills...
What the "flushing" machines do is put in "new" fluid into the downstream side of a "break" in the cooling line while simultaneously taking out the "old" fluid on the upstream side of the "break". The trick is putting it in at the same rate you take it out.
I don't know where to round this equipment up, but here are a couple of ideas:
1) Tank/bladder. A simple tank with a bladder in it (clean fluid on one side) could be used for this. The "old" fluid would lift the bladder (or piston) and push the "new" fluid out. This would keep the flow rates equal. Another trick is starting/stopping the process. For this, you could use a 4-way valve. One position of the valve would be "straight" through, the second position would loop through the "tank".
2) Coupled gear pumps. Again using the "old" fluid as the "driver", push it through a small gear pump/motor. The output shaft of gear motor would drive an identical small pump that would pump in the "new" oil at the same rate.
As I think these two ideas are beyond the normal home shop, I kind of fall back on just doing 3-4 drain / refills...
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
10 Ugly Ford Trucks That We Still Kinda Love
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Every Truck Owner NEEDS (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalyptic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Top 10 Ford Truck Tragedies
Joe Kucinski
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make
Brett Foote
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!
Michael S. Palmer
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
From: All Over
Forest,
Wouldn't doing 3-4 drain fills mix a lot more old fluid in with the new? Understand that I will not totally flush it out using the method prescribed above...but wouldn't it have a lot less old fluid being mixed?...then maybe draining and refilling the pan after that?
If you could explain how it is just as effective as the method I plan to use...it would be much appreciated.
Loonatic,
Just one point before you do this.... that inline filter housing is supposed to be a B#@@ to get off....reason I say this is you may spend quite a while getting it off...thereby cooling the tranny a lot more than you would like. I have heard an impact gets it right off. Not sure how much luck others have had oiling the threads and letting it sit. But before I start, I'm going to make sure I can at least turn it...then I will go get the tranny nice and hot.
Wouldn't doing 3-4 drain fills mix a lot more old fluid in with the new? Understand that I will not totally flush it out using the method prescribed above...but wouldn't it have a lot less old fluid being mixed?...then maybe draining and refilling the pan after that?
If you could explain how it is just as effective as the method I plan to use...it would be much appreciated.
Loonatic,
Just one point before you do this.... that inline filter housing is supposed to be a B#@@ to get off....reason I say this is you may spend quite a while getting it off...thereby cooling the tranny a lot more than you would like. I have heard an impact gets it right off. Not sure how much luck others have had oiling the threads and letting it sit. But before I start, I'm going to make sure I can at least turn it...then I will go get the tranny nice and hot.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,198
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa, OK
I had no trouble getting my inline filter housing loose. Maybe I was lucky.
See my note above.
If you get 33% of fluid "out" every time you pull drain plug (6 out of 17.5 qts = 34%), and then refill with "new" fluid, the total fluid is now 67% "old". You have added 6 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.67 = .45 or 45% "old". You have added a total of 12 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.45 = .30 or 30% "old". You have added a total of 18 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 20% old. You have added a total of 24 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 13% old. You have added a total of 30 qts.
Of course, you may pay more for the oil, but you sure have not done much more work than a normal change out of fluid.
See my note above.
If you get 33% of fluid "out" every time you pull drain plug (6 out of 17.5 qts = 34%), and then refill with "new" fluid, the total fluid is now 67% "old". You have added 6 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.67 = .45 or 45% "old". You have added a total of 12 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.45 = .30 or 30% "old". You have added a total of 18 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 20% old. You have added a total of 24 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 13% old. You have added a total of 30 qts.
Of course, you may pay more for the oil, but you sure have not done much more work than a normal change out of fluid.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 21,113
Likes: 3,939
From: Ohio
Forrest.....from what I was told since I have not actually pulled the pan off and looked around. The filter in the pan does not need to be changed, it is more of a screen which would stop the big pieces in case of of a failure. The only filter needed is the inline one.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 21,113
Likes: 3,939
From: Ohio
I guess you can say the Torq-Shift is doing a fine job. Here we are talking about changing fluid and none of us have really had problems. I remember a few previous vehicles I owned needed a zipper to speed up the repair times.
Another problem is having a good dealer. Using a dealer for my first service on the trans has left me with no answer for you Bear.....but that is to change this weekend.
Another problem is having a good dealer. Using a dealer for my first service on the trans has left me with no answer for you Bear.....but that is to change this weekend.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
From: All Over
Originally Posted by Forest
I had no trouble getting my inline filter housing loose. Maybe I was lucky.
See my note above.
If you get 33% of fluid "out" every time you pull drain plug (6 out of 17.5 qts = 34%), and then refill with "new" fluid, the total fluid is now 67% "old". You have added 6 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.67 = .45 or 45% "old". You have added a total of 12 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.45 = .30 or 30% "old". You have added a total of 18 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 20% old. You have added a total of 24 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 13% old. You have added a total of 30 qts.
Of course, you may pay more for the oil, but you sure have not done much more work than a normal change out of fluid.
See my note above.
If you get 33% of fluid "out" every time you pull drain plug (6 out of 17.5 qts = 34%), and then refill with "new" fluid, the total fluid is now 67% "old". You have added 6 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.67 = .45 or 45% "old". You have added a total of 12 qts.
Do it again, and now the totally mixed fluid is only .67*.45 = .30 or 30% "old". You have added a total of 18 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 20% old. You have added a total of 24 qts.
Do it again, and you are down to 13% old. You have added a total of 30 qts.
Of course, you may pay more for the oil, but you sure have not done much more work than a normal change out of fluid.
Yeah...I understand (I think)...I'm just a dumb Infantryman so those numbers are kind of confusing...LOL
I understand that it is easier I guess just doing it that way, but that is a lot of excess fluid to accomplish the end result.
...but to answer my question...aside from the hassle of disconnecting the return line and simultaneously adding fluid to the same rate as it is being pumped out. Which one is more efficient at getting the most old fluid out using the least amount of new fluid?
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
From: All Over
UPDATE:
After work I accomplished the following:
1. Changed Oil...no big deal...love the FUMOTO valve
2. Changed Fuel Filters....no big deal....just drain the HFCM first and you won't get a bath when you take the frame mounted fuel filter out.
I have been using this new HFCM drain plug...works like a charm...no tools necessary.
New drain plug for HFCM
http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/articl...icle-05-19.php
It's made for 2006 LCF (medium duty truck). It's a nice heavy duty plug that enables you to remove without tools.
The part number is: 6E7Z-9C082-A
If your dealer is having a difficult time finding the part, tell them its a Blue Diamond Part and give them the specifics..ie for a 2006 LCF medium duty truck and a description of the part with the part number.
$16.00 out the door
Pic of the part in International Packaging (note the IH part number is different)
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10283.jpg
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10282.jpg
Installing into the HFCM
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10285.jpg
Installed
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10286.jpg
3. The last thing I did this afternoon was change my Transfer Case Fluid.
Steps:
a. Remove Skid plate
b. Use 10mm Hex Socket (see pic) to remove the inspection plug first
c. Place a bucket under the drain plug
d. Use 10mm Hex Socket to remove the drain plug.
e. Re-Install drain plug using 10mm Hex Socket
f. I used a "FLUID QUART PUMP" that I bought at O-Rileys Auto to pump in 2 quarts of MERCRON. The pump allowed me to get the fluid right up to the inspection hole. (see pic)
g. Re-Install Inspection plug using 10mm Hex Socket.
h. Re-Install Skid plate
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/11156.jpg
Tomorrow...I tackle the Torqueshift Tranny...that is if I can find an impact wrench...I sprayed the inline filter housing down with WD-40 and using a ratchet, I could tell that I would bend or break the mount if I put any muscle into it.
After work I accomplished the following:
1. Changed Oil...no big deal...love the FUMOTO valve
2. Changed Fuel Filters....no big deal....just drain the HFCM first and you won't get a bath when you take the frame mounted fuel filter out.
I have been using this new HFCM drain plug...works like a charm...no tools necessary.
New drain plug for HFCM
http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/articl...icle-05-19.php
It's made for 2006 LCF (medium duty truck). It's a nice heavy duty plug that enables you to remove without tools.
The part number is: 6E7Z-9C082-A
If your dealer is having a difficult time finding the part, tell them its a Blue Diamond Part and give them the specifics..ie for a 2006 LCF medium duty truck and a description of the part with the part number.
$16.00 out the door
Pic of the part in International Packaging (note the IH part number is different)
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10283.jpg
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10282.jpg
Installing into the HFCM
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10285.jpg
Installed
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/10286.jpg
3. The last thing I did this afternoon was change my Transfer Case Fluid.
Steps:
a. Remove Skid plate
b. Use 10mm Hex Socket (see pic) to remove the inspection plug first
c. Place a bucket under the drain plug
d. Use 10mm Hex Socket to remove the drain plug.
e. Re-Install drain plug using 10mm Hex Socket
f. I used a "FLUID QUART PUMP" that I bought at O-Rileys Auto to pump in 2 quarts of MERCRON. The pump allowed me to get the fluid right up to the inspection hole. (see pic)
g. Re-Install Inspection plug using 10mm Hex Socket.
h. Re-Install Skid plate
http://www.truckblog.com/gallery/BearHunter/11156.jpg
Tomorrow...I tackle the Torqueshift Tranny...that is if I can find an impact wrench...I sprayed the inline filter housing down with WD-40 and using a ratchet, I could tell that I would bend or break the mount if I put any muscle into it.
Last edited by Bear Hunter; Nov 4, 2005 at 07:07 PM.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
From: All Over
COMPLETE SUCCESS!!
Pumped out 8.75 quarts in less than a minute!
a. Tranny capacity = 17.5 quarts
b. Removed 7 quarts from pan 17.5 - 7 = 10.5
c. Added 10 quarts to get ahead of the pump 10.5 + 10 = 20.5
d. Pumped out 8.75 quarts 20.5 - 8.75 = 11.75
e. Add 5.75 quarts to fill tranny to specs 11.75 + 5.75 = 17.5
Pumped out 8.75 quarts in less than a minute!
a. Tranny capacity = 17.5 quarts
b. Removed 7 quarts from pan 17.5 - 7 = 10.5
c. Added 10 quarts to get ahead of the pump 10.5 + 10 = 20.5
d. Pumped out 8.75 quarts 20.5 - 8.75 = 11.75
e. Add 5.75 quarts to fill tranny to specs 11.75 + 5.75 = 17.5