Was wandering what problems I could have if I over-torqued the crankshaft and rod caps? Could some of my engine noise (see signature) be from that?
Thought 46 ftlb wasn't enough, so...

Thanx,
Munrow

 

How much over? The main problem would be from overstressing the bolts, causing them to break...ouch! If that had happened at this point, I think you'd be experiencing more than just clatter. Sounds more like maybe you didn't have the crank turned and it's out-of-round and you have too much bearing clearance.

If you were to use aftermarket bolts such as ARP you'd see that they recommend a higher torque value than stock. This is because they use a higher grade of steel. (If you go to ARP's website, you should find some tech info about their manufacturing process and the tensile strength of their products. Maybe not applicable, but interesting reading nonetheless!)

 

When we did our 302 my brother in law thought 25lbs wasn't enough on the 1/4 inch bolts. So he went to 50.. It now has a nice a cold knock at idle. That is the only problem it's caused and we've put ~75k on it since then.

 

did you use new bolts when puting together your bottem end?

 

Over tightening will distort bearing caps, and make them out of round. Bearing caps are torqued to specs when they're machined.

 

Thanks for the replies. Sorry I haven't responded sooner, got a few health issues going on

TigerDan: Not quite sure how much over. After the torque wrench clicked, I kept going until it felt snug, probably another 1/2 to 3/4 revolution of the wrench. I think about 80-95 ftlb. I used ARP for the headbolts (see post https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s....php?&t=371693), ended up tightening them to Ford specs with synthetic lube.
When I tore down the engine, it looked so perfect that, because of time problems (had to get it put back together for work), I feel I made improper assumptions as to the condition of the crankshaft. Everything about the engine looked absolutely perfect. Seems someone had very recently gotten a newly re-built shortblock (the bolt-ons left something to be desired as far as quality and competance. Looked like someone had vomited silicone everywhere it could go, distributor was shot, etc.), put it in their truck, and got the rearend squashed by something big.

pfogle: On the bright side, the noises have not gotten any better or worse after about 2000 miles. Maybe there's hope...

Kemicalburns: For the crankshaft and rod caps, I used new stock bolts from the autoparts store. Because of not being very sure of an acceptable outcome, I tried to go new as far as finances would allow. Hadn't really heard much about ARP bolts until I got to trying to look up info about head bolts and any possible surprises.

stevef100s: Would an out of round condition in any of the caps cause my lack of oil pressure, and, the clatter at speed? Seems the gaps would be the same as worn or shot bearings. Also, if they are that much out of round, the bearings have probably worn too much to be any good.

Thanks everyone for your help,
Munrow

 

If you replace the rod bolts, it's usually recommended to have the rods resized...even if you're putting new stock bolts in. Driving the old bolts out and new ones in can make the caps out-of-round, not to mention the distortion caused by overtightening as Steve pointed out.

Are you saying you went 80-95 ft/lbs on the rod bolts?
I hope not! Heck, I've mananged to break the stock bolts just bringing 'em up to stock torque specs. (old ones I should have changed anyway)
Just stuck some other used ones in with no problem that time.

Yeah, I've done a lot of things out of desperation over the years that I shouldn't have, and many times gotten away with it. You never know. But it's best to do it right the first time. The things we do to save time and money that so often wind up coming back to bite us in the butt!

I see we wern't too good at giving you any response on your earlier thread. Hope we're making up for it now...

 

Sorry about causing confusion, "Are you saying you went 80-95 ft/lbs on the rod bolts?".
I believe it was nuts on the rods caps, bolts on the crank caps. The pistons, after cleaning, looked absolutely brand new, so I didn't worry about the rod bolts.

 

Yes, I should have said nuts on the rod caps, not bolts. Sorry, I'm dyslexic and always say one when I mean the other...maybe I should just say fasteners!

 

Please, allow me to accept my own imperfect nature,

"If you replace the rod bolts, it's usually recommended to have the rods resized...even if you're putting new stock bolts in. Driving the old bolts out and new ones in can make the caps out-of-round, not to mention the distortion caused by overtightening as Steve pointed out."
If it were a mistake that could only have one possible answer, then the dyslexic thing could work. However, as changing rod bolts is a possibility, the error must be mine. Thanks for letting me share...

If you were saying this- "Are you saying you went 80-95 ft/lbs on the rod bolts?
I hope not! Heck, I've mananged to break the stock bolts just bringing 'em up to stock torque specs. (old ones I should have changed anyway)
Just stuck some other used ones in with no problem that time." -about factory connecting rod nuts, and I went to 80-90 ftlbs, it would seem that it is a most excellent set of pistons, right?

Anyway, if I have no work this weekend, I'm going to try dropping the oil pan (E-250 351W w/almost a double sump pan. Get to disconnect the engine and tranny and jack it up about 6 inches) to change the oil pump/screen. Figure with a lot of time and hand cranking, I can ,hopefully, try to re-torque all the caps. Worst that can happen is...nothing.

Again, thanks for everyone's advice and input,
Munrow

 

Worst that can happen is...nothing.

or the worst. the bearing crush will not be the same so the bearing could spin. why the heck would you put them to 80ft lbs 46ft is all that is needed. don't try to over think the specs.

 

You're absolutely right- "why the heck would you put them to 80ft lbs 46ft is all that is needed. don't try to over think the specs". Guess I was tripping a little by the time I got to that part. Thanks so much for pointing out the possibility of bearing-spin. Again, I didn't think it through.

When I started hearing the rod-knock in the old engine, I had about $800 to spent on some kind of replacement. The 351w I had previously gotten from the boneyard (buying the engine, re-building the heads, cost about $48 less than buying factory heads from the auto parts store; the extra fuel pump eccentric was literally a life-saver one Sunday when I found that I had screwed it up when changing the camshaft.) seemed to have too big a ridge at the top of the cylinders to be salvageable on my budget.

Did the yellow pages thing and couldn't find a guaranteed short-block that would allow me cash left for putting the engine together afterwards.

When I went to the garage to see if anything seemed salvageable from the junker, I inadvertantly knocked what appeared a chunk of carbon from the top of one cylinder. That section didn't appear to be worn at all. A little more tapping and scraping with a hard plastic putty knife, and it seemed that all of the build-up at the cylinder tops was just carbon.
Friend of mine (Great guy, airplane mech.) said a re-build was possible on my budget.

Got the Haynes Re-build manual, hone, new bearings, rings, seals, gaskets, etc., and started to do it. Used aftermarket stuff (see sig.) that was less than 8 months old from old engine. After honing, absolutely no ridge in any cylinder. According to the photos of bearing and/or journal problems and causes, everything in that engine looked totally perfect.

Everything had gone so well by the time I got to the point of installing the caps, except for multiple trips for the correct rings (perfect .030 over) and end seal, that I guess whatever psychological imperfection I have that makes me think I'm gonna screw up kicked in.

Keep in mind, though, everything I think I know about engines I've learned since getting this vehicle in July of 2002, finding out about FTE, and a lot of trial and error . Didn't know such basics as timing, or even where to look for the fuel filter on a factory carb. And, this is my first ever attempt at a re-build, definately not my last.

Again, thanks for the possible bearing-spin tip.
You guys, the ones who are the true definition of posting gurus (as opposed to the "posting gurus" who just feel the need to comment on every little thing. Doesn't guru mean someone who knows a crapload about something?), are awesome.
Munrow

 

try www.rebuilt-auto-car-engines.com that is where is send people on a budget. they build reliable engines for a decent price.

 

Thanks for the link, and believe I have the utmost respect for the intent, but I think I'm going to be doing my own re-builds 'til I get too old for it.

As I said, this is my first re-build. Except for the above, totally moronic on my part torque issues, stupidly trusting that the oil pump was new because the screen/pickup looked perfect after cleaning, and, using a cordless drill to turn the shaft in the pump caused a 6 foot fountain of oil, and general fear of the unknown, I am content with this first-time thing of having literally touched every part of my engine. Actually it seems the oiling issues may come from the bearing problems.

Also, it started first try after putting the engine back together, and the only leakage happened a couple weeks later due to a loose radiator hose clamp.

Next time, I take the old block that came out of the vehicle to a shop for proper work before starting a .040 over 393 stroker, if the finances get right.

Again, thanks for all the help, info, etc.,
Munrow

 

The thing about working on cars is...they can be fun as hell, and frustrating as hell! Don't beat yourself up over it, do-do happens! Believe me, I've made plenty of mistakes over the years, and still make them. The key is to learn from them, as you have. A lot of people don't...they just make the same mistakes over and over.

My bro-in-law decided to tackle rebuilding the 351W in his van a number of years back. He'd never done a rebuild before, and I couldn't be there to help him through it. When he was done, it ran...but made some strange noises I've never heard before, or since. There was a ringing sound that came and went, with no regularity. There was a sound like flywheel teeth rubbing, but only sometimes. Then, there was a hammering that would start up, like a little gremlin was under there beating on the block with a hammer, but that too seemed to have no regularity to it. He just said screw it and drove the thing. It went several thousand miles and then one night coming back from a camping trip it spit a rod through the side of the pan. We never bothered to pull it and tear it down, he junked the van after that. But he's never had the nerve to rebuild another engine. Still does other things on cars though, and I have to shudder whenever he takes wrench in hand. He's a great guy and smart as hell, but he doesn't think things through, he just jumps in and tackles the job, sometimes with...shall we say, less than desireable results!