sounds like overkill and possibly an attempt to sidestep finding and correcting the problem? if there is a burr in a lifter bore, a tight valveguide, or something else, throwing money and a roller cam/lifters may overcome/hide the problem. or it might not? there's got to be something he can find to explain why #4 intake lobe/lifter won't last, hopefully he'll find it! i would also suspect that it'd be hard to find a roller cam that would not require some head work to make the spring/retainer combo compatible to the lift? M/400 heads are not able to accept much additional lift over stock without machining and parts. more money to think about. what kind of lift are the heads set up for now?

 

Good advice,

I agree, I do not want to spend another dime on this engine, I am at just over 2k now. These roller cam/lifters are $$$, I am really not wanting to spring for it.

The sick part of this whole thing is when I took the truck apart to restore it, I pulled the engine and gave it to him to rebuild, so I could paint /detail the engine compartment. That was back in the year 2000. When he started taking it apart he gave me a call and said the gaskets looked new on it, and the engine looked like that it had a recent rebuild on it already ( I had only owned it a few months at that time ) . The engine ran fine when I took it out, no noise, no smoke, plenty of low end power. But stupid me, with me doing the restore and all , I wanted it all fresh and shiny, tricked out some, so I let him go ahead do the build. The rest is history on here in the archives...

Update : I talked to him at 2pm today about what he was doing on the engine. He said he already removed the "second " cam I bought that failed, the Comp 268, and it had a burred lope on #4 intake lobe, and the lifter was frozen. I asked him that when he installed the lifter new, was it free turning, and with no burrs on the bore, and said it was fine in that respect when he put it in. ( he kinda gets irritated when I check on his skills, something I am not qualified to do really, but its my dime he is spending ) . ...

As we were talking , he said he did notice that when he looked down thru the lifter opening it looked like, or maybe it was just a refracted light reflection, that the lifter opening was a very , very , slight bit ( thousands) off of hitting dead center on the cam lobe....


So he said before he would put another cam in it, he would get out his machinists gauges and check on that lifter bore/to cam lobe alignment. He said he doenst see how that it could be misaligned on just one lobe though. I reminded him this was the second cam destroyed by that #4 lifter , so he had better search it out good with a fine scope, before another one gets cooked. He just loooved that comment, but 46 year long buds can get away with that kind of ribbing each other,

 

I can tell you that some blocks from Ford just came out of the factory wrong. I had a # of weird defects in my #1 and #7 cylinders, that the machinist thought were casting related. Its not out of the question for a lifter bore or cam bore to be off center. But I doubt that you can eyeball a couple thousands off. And I doubt that it would cause catastrophic failure.

Have you thought about whether its the piston or cylinder firing or something for that particular lobe that might be damaging it? I assume you mean #4 as in 4th from the front...so that would be what...the exhaust for cylinder #5? or intake? Have you verified that there isn't any blockage in the exhaust manifold at this cylinder? Your positive that cylinder #5 is firing, right? (Sorry if you've answered these questions before, I haven't read thru the whole post in a while). Whenever the lobe has failed, have you replaced the valve/spring also?

-James

 

James you are exactly right, you should see how much a crank bore can be off thats why in really high performance engines you end up line honing them. My block was off by .042" before line honing and if your looking the cam bore can be off that much too pretty easy, and lifter bores definatly can be off center also. In a stock engine they usually are not too far off but when rebuilding sometimes it is just enough to cause troubles.

 

why do we think the lifters rotate anyway? because the lifter bores ARE off-center to the lobes! there is a slight angle ground into the cam also but that doesn't last forever. even a high mileage cam that is worn considerably will rotate the lifters, if nothing is stopping them from spinning. that #4 intake lifter bore needs some attention and i'd bet your problem is solved. maybe something got dropped onto the valley area, or the block got rolled over onto something that dinked the top of the lifter bore? who knows at this point, but it probably isn't a big deal to get it smoothed out. i'd hit it lightly with a hone and take a look for a spot that's cutting hard, then maybe check it with a telescoping gauge and micrometer if the hone doesn't show a definate problem spot. are you sure this block is not one of the MCC blocks that all crack in the lifter valley?

 

0.
Thanks for the advice,

It is #4 cylinder ( the cylinder next to the firewall on passenger side on the 351m) and it has been the cams intake lobe burring up on #4 cylinder, on both cam failures. Yes, new springs. I am not a mechanic , but it seems to me that he should be able to find this problem readily. ....

On the first fire up/cam break in of this rebuilt engine, # 4 cylinder spark plug never got sooted, like it had never fired that much, the cam was wiped out along with the lifter. The second cam /lifters got installed , the engine fired nicely and I suppose ran on all 8 cylinders, I wasnt there, the truck is at his home 80 miles away. He ran it for thirty minutes fluctuating the rpm 1500-2000 rpm to break in the second cam, using straight 30 weight Valv oil....

Thirty minutes in to the run, # 4 cylinder lifter started ticking. After checking in to the ticking noise, he found out the second cam was wiped out in the thirty minutes cam break-in running. ..

Like I have said earlier, he does not take well to a non-mechanic (me) telling him what I am learning on here about what could be wrong. I am caught between the proverbial rock and a hard spot, because I let my childhood friend (46 years now) buddy , build my engine. If it was a engine shop somewhere, I could just go get the truck bring it home and have someone else fix it, or I could just get rid of it....

It is a pride thing with him now, he doesnt want to give it back to me until he has it running well. If he lets this third cam get ruined , he has agreed to admit failure and will give the truck back. Just a bad situation for both he and I ,

 

Try to blow out the oil gallery on that side of the motor, especially #4 intake lifter gallery. There might be some silicone floating around in there. A good mechanic ought to be able to figure out a way to do that.

 

This is my 2 cents worth. I have experience rebuilding those engines.

First, I'm very curious as to 'why' the #4 is failing. In any event, have the #4 lifter channel inspected for damage after you remove the failed lifter. If the channel is ok, then do this.

I would replace the rocker arms as well. Those stock slider sleds work ok, but they cause a lot of friction that is power robbing, and since you appear to be having problems with the set-up, I'd replace them too. Replace them with Crane rocker rollers. Part #CRN-13744-16 at Summit Racing are the ones I use. You will need the guidplate conversion kit as well. CRN-52655-16

You will need a set of hardened pushrods. Do not use the stock ones. They are not strong enough to carry the load, and will bend on you.

I would recommend using the comp cam 255 or 265 dual energy. It is a hydraulic flat tappet cam. I doubt the hydraulic cam setup is your problem for the failed lifter. Comp Cam sells a kit that includes new lifters. I would get the kit, for the kits are usually tuned to work with each other, and is a good habit.

Make sure your engine rebuilder is using lots and lots and lots of the engine break-in lube, make sure you get those hardened push-rods, and also double check that the channel in the #4 lifter is not damaged, so it won't damage a new lifter, and replace those rocker arms. If those original rocker arms are seizing up, it will cause the problems you are having.

Thats my opinion. Good luck!

 

One last thing, make sure that block is squeeky clean! There may be a blocked oil channel in there, like what was stated on the previous post about some silicone or other junk.

 

Comp Cams has issued this in a newsletter:

Some recent changes in oil and engine technology likely the cause of premature camshaft failure; here’s what you can do

Premature flat tappet camshaft failure has been an issue of late and not just with one brand or type of camshaft. In almost every case, the hardness or the taper of the cam lobe is suspected, yet most of the time that is not the problem. This growing trend is due to factors that are unrelated to camshaft manufacture or quality. Changes in today's oil products and “advanced” internal engine design have contributed to a harsher environment for the camshaft and a potential for failure during break-in. But there are several things you can do to turn the tide on this discouraging trend.

Proper Camshaft Set-Up & Break-In
Proper flat tappet camshaft set-up and break-in, as any engine builder knows, are keys to how long a camshaft will last, both short and long term. Making certain that the camshaft and lifters are properly lubricated will guarantee that the camshaft and lifters are protected during the critical initial start-up of your newly-built engine. COMP Cams® offers the right product for this job, Pro Cam Lube (Part #154), and it is available in several different size containers for engine builder convenience. To further enhance this “relationship,” we strongly recommend the use of COMP Cams® Camshaft Break-In Oil Additive (Part #159) during the break-in. While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from off-the-shelf oil. These specialized COMP Cams® lubricants are the best “insurance policy” you can buy and the first step to avoiding durability problems with your new flat tappet camshaft.

Adequate Lubrication
Another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of engine oil. Simply put, today’s engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes to the oil have only made life tougher on your camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically the reduction of important additives such as zinc and manganese, which help break-in and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend Shell Rotella T oil for the break-in procedure. Most often used in diesel engine applications, this higher lubricity oil works in gasoline engines as well.

Today’s engines are great at providing oil to every engine component except one - your camshaft. Windage trays, limiting oil’s ability to reach the top of the engine, modification of connecting rod side clearances for less splash oil and special oil pans further complicate both the break-in process and camshaft operation in general. But there are several things you can do to correct these problems.

COMP Cams® offers flat tappet lifters with oiling holes in the cam face surface, which will increase oil flow to the lifter-camshaft lobe contact point. Furthermore, using a lifter bore grooving tool (Part #5003) will enhance oiling throughout the camshaft and valve train. As we all know by now, better oil flow means better initial break-in and increased camshaft durability.

Flat Tappet Lifter Selection – Choose Carefully!
In addition to these engine modifications, make certain you purchase high-quality lifters. Most lifters look alike, but you don’t really know where they were produced. “Imported” flat tappets often times use inferior lifter castings and DO NOT deliver the durability of COMP Cams® high-quality, US-built lifters. COMP Cams® lifters are built to strict diameter and radius tolerances and designed to fit precisely within their lifter bores. This ensures the lifter rotates properly and decreases the potential for failure. Additionally, COMP Cams® Flat Tappet Lifters have the correct oil band depth and location to properly regulate the internal oiling of your engine.
Five steps to increased flat tappet camshaft durability:

* Double check your camshaft and lifter set-up prior to the break-in process, and use an ample amount of the supplied assembly lube on all lobes, distributor gear and the face of bottom of each lifter.
* Use high-lubricity engine oil such as Shell Rotella T oil to help during the break-in process, or use COMP Cams® Camshaft Break-In Oil Additive (Part #159).
* Use flat tappet lifters with cam face oiling provisions, such as COMP Cams® Part #800-16 (GM) or #817-16 (Ford).
* Use a COMP Cams® Lifter Bore Grooving Tool (Part #5003) to increase oiling.
* Use high-quality, U.S.-built COMP Cams® lifters to make certain you are receiving the best quality lifter you can buy. Avoid “brown bag” lifters.


You can read the last "current issue" here, it looks as if they have not updated the website:
http://www.powerandperformancenews.c...s/PAPNV2I9.htm
Home page: http://www.powerandperformancenews.com/

EDIT- the newsletter has finaly been updated:
http://www.powerandperformancenews.c...APNV2I10.htm#1

I am sure glad I am using roller lifters!

 

Eric, thank you for posting this article. It just might save some people from making some simple, but very costly mistakes. I bought my k-kit from comp cams over a year ago, but it's still in the box while I accumulate more goodies for my 400. I'm glad I didn't install it before having this information. Thanks again.

 

I agree, thanks Eric. I too bought the k-kit for the 255DEH, and will be installing it sometime soon. Other than the assembly lube, I had not planned on doing anything else during break-in. I will now try and use either the Rotella or the additive.

If you use the Rotella, do you just fill the crankcase with this stuff instead of 10w40 (or whatever), and run it with the Rotella for the 1st 500 miles or so?

 

Yes, thank you for posting that article. I put the Comp Cam 265 DEH camshaft kit in my lincoln's 400M, but didn't know about the oil. I put about 3000 miles on it so far with off-the-shelf oil, but won't drive it anymore until I change the oil with Deisel oil, or shell rotella.

Thanks again!

 

I just changed the oil with some deisel oil. 15w40. Thick stuff! I'll have to watch the temperatures up here in NH. I don't plan on doing much cold weather driving any in that old Lincoln anyways.

Sure hope it helps the engine. It sure feels and smells like quality stuff. I'm betting that old 400M will love the stuff.

 

Is that what Rotella is? Just diesel oil? What brand did you buy smoulding?