I will say I switch my race engines to full synthetic after the initial fire up, and heat cycle basically about 20min run time, now I do run roller cams, but I also run moly rings and haven't had a problem with the rings seating which is the only reason not to switch is for ring seating and if I can seat moly rings in 20 min the softer cast rings used in OEM applications probably were seated before the engine was ever fired.
BTW friend of mine just switched his 4.0L ranger to full synthetic it's a 2002 went from 14-15mpg to 18-19mpg on the last 2 tanks he has run through it so at current gas prices that will definatly pay for itself.

 

I kinda wonder at the high gas mileage increses.
5-20 semi synth is probably right at the top of the gas mileage curve. If these trucks got .2 better mpg on Amsoil, they would come stock with Amsoil. Or whatever. CAFE.
Chris

 

Chris you are forgetting one thing they can meet CAFE requirements without synthetic, and it costs them $5 to put regular oil in, and would cost them atleast $10 more to run synthetic from the factory, and I can tell you from personal experience the factory will save $6 per vehicle even if it means that the vehicle might not be safe, the case I am talking about is that 80-96 F150 4x4s had a problem now it was supposedly only 1 in 10,000 that had the problem but if you did when you hit the brakes the truck would swerve violently left suddenly supposedly they had known about it since 1982, and knew how to fix it but since only 4-500 people had been killed by it (that is a direct quote from a ford factory rep to me) they weren't going to waste the extra $6 dollars at the factory and would spend that money if and when they had a problem with a particular vehicle. And those deaths are just those that were reported as that bieng the cause so you can bet there was probably more like 4000 people who's life wasn't worth $6 to Ford so why then would they spend $10 per vehicle extra to put synthetic in your vehicle even if they do put it in the vehicle that is tested to get the average (you don't really ever see the posted mileage on the window sticker do you how do you think they do that since they have to prove that mileage to EPA)

 

In Consumer Reports this month they tell how the government knows how faulty the whole window sticker mileage thing is, it's just that the right pockets are getting lined so nothing is being done about it! It's bad when the truth is posted about these companies but they make so much money they still don't care.

 

I'm sorry, can't quite figure out what you are posting???

I can say that no company would let people die for 6 bucks.
Sorry, those evil people don't really exist; they are just made up characters on TV.
Like the evil town where everyone wants to kill the stranger, or all the evil business men and mad scientists stereotypes.

Economics of safety are another thing. If a stop light costs 25,000,000 bucks to put in (Bellflower and Highway 395) you have to weigh the ‘possibility’ it saves life, or causes the loss of life, and then weigh it against the million man hours of resources that will be spent on doing it.

Could that same 25,000,000 be better spent on ten ambulances?

Or smoothing a dangerous turn on Adelanto Road?

Or you could double the local property tax, and do all three, except the property value would plummet if you did that, and thus actually return fewer funds.

If you think my numbers are wrong, they are not. I was involved in the decision to put in that 25 Meg stop light, and the dilemma was as stated.

In a business, you decide what makes sense. You never knowingly do something that harms people.

For every 'they should have known' there is an equal or greater number of people who prior to the problem, were sure it was not a problem.

Ford, like any other big company making millions of complicated things, makes mistakes. It's not possible to not make mistakes.

People who say that no expense should be spared for safety, would scream bloody murder when told that the new truck is going to cost 1,000,000, and must be serviced at the dealership for 10,000 a year, and is locked so you can't put the wrong tires, parts, etc. on it. And speed limited to 40 mph.

And you must go to a six week course in driving it before you can buy it.

Oh, and you must do a complicated puzzle each time before you can drive, to verify you are sober, and alert.

Gee, you want that? It still wouldn't be completely safe. Even on a closed road, a meteor could hit you...

Sure, they dodge things like redoing the whole rear on the LS trucks because of the vibe, since it would cost billions, but the handful of trucks with the vibe are not life threatening.

No, bean counters are our bane, but never ascribe malice to something that is caused by human error, or mistake.
It's just plain wrong.
Chris

 

Sorry Chris on this one you are just plain niave, I told you the story, and it did happen to me in my 95 F150 and when the mechanic showed me the service bulletin on the problem (I had to prove the problem to the service manager for him to look it up, and that was done with shaking hands cause I scared him to death) I called ford directly and the response was that yes they had known about it since 1982, and the cure was to put poly bushings in the radius arms, and it wouldn't happen but that these cost the factory $6 per vehicle more, and since as far as thier statistics showed it only happened in 1 in 10,000 trucks (now think about how many of these trucks ford built in those years) they meaning ford didn't see the need to do anything about it as it was a waste of money in thier mind trust me if you were to find someone that had access to Fords customer computor, and emailed me I will give you my name, and whatever other info you need to look this thing up, but last I talked to them they had 9 pages of stuff on my truck, and me. The death statistics actuallly came from NHTSA, and they stated that they had informed ford of the problem, but until the death toll reached an average of 100 per year they couldn't force them to do a recall. This truck almost killed me and my wife as well as another family luckily for me the other driver was on the ball, and put his van into a very light ditch, I paid to have him towed out, and appologized never ending for the incident, and explained it to him and when I took the truck up the road with him in it, at 25mph and hit the brakes hard it did the same thing again so he did believe me, and no charges filed, plus since I had just about 1 hr previously had gotten the vehicle out of the Ford shop for another problem and this was the first time it happened we actually thought they had done something to it and they had worked on the trans not front suspension I was very very lucky but how many people had swerved into oncoming traffic like that where no one ever actually knew why they did it. I was running 55mph and hit the brakes hard not locked but hard cause we had come up on the road we were looking for when this happened.
Now this is totally off topic of this thread and was only meant to show that they will do whatever it takes to make a buck, so no they wouldn't put synthetic in just to make the car meet CAFE standards they have other ways of getting that done cheaper.

Edit just for info I bought the truck brand new and it had less than 14k miles on it when this little problem exerted itself, they then put poly bushings in it, and redid the radius arm mounts, and it never happened again.

 

Monsterbaby, that's the first time in my entire life I have been called naive.

I'm usually called cynical, or Attila, etc. That happens when you own/manage companies for 30-40 years. The boss is always a cynical SOB, heck; it's in the job description.

I can not actually grasp your posts.
As a favor to those of us that read in sentences and paragraphs, could you please repost your points with separation, or punctuation?

Not being a grammar ****, I really can't quite figure out your posts.

Again, not starting a flame war, it's just my old eyes can't quite separate out what you are saying.
Thanks
Chris

 

Sorry, yes my grammer, punctuation is terrible, and always has been. I will try, and do better with this one.
My post about my truck is not the first time ford or other companies have forgone safety in the name of profit.
to stay on Fords how about the "exploding Pinto's"? Do you think that the pinto was the first car that had the problem of exploding when rearended by a higher profile vehicle like a pickup? No it wasn't the 1965 Mustang had exactly the same problem. When hit from behind with a higher vehicle the body is shoved down, and the gas tanks would then contact the rear differential rupturing, and if there was any sparks igniting. Ford knew about this problem yet didn't correct it until 1972 with the mustang due to the added cost of the vehicle, and then in 1972 they put exactly the same style gas tank in the Pinto. Why did they correct it then? well a US senators daughter was killed in a rearend collision that resulted in an explosion. Did ford recall all the mustangs, and Pinto's to fix them? No they paid off the senator, and were allowed to just correct the problem starting in 1974. So they got away with making cars that had a known safety hazard for 9 yrs before they had to pony up, and fix it.
Now I don't mean to pick on Ford over this, since both GM, and Dodge have done, and continue to do these types of things. I worked at a Chevrolet dealer back in the early 90s, and had to repair under a forced recall the seatbelts in corsicas, Berretas, and Caprices that were built from 1987-1992. Gm knew about the problem in 1990 but didn't stop building them that way until they were forced to, and due to the media coverage of that particular defect they had to recall all of them built in that period. You can check this one out very easily by looking up recalls on the vehicles I listed, and you will find it.
There is my punctuation any better on this one? I am trying, but sometimes when I get typing I forget. Plus I am just plain bad about it. Once again sorry if it made those hard to read.

 

Hmm another thought to get this closer to back on topic. and another example.
when you rebuild a engine do you go out, and buy the cheapest, generic oil filter you can find? Or do you go out, and buy atleast as good of one that you will be running on the engine for the rest of it's life. If your like me you will go out, and spend the money on a good oil filter.
Now ALL of the OEM manufactures buy the cheapest bulk filters they can buy to save a few pennies on every engine they send out of the factory. Now the first time an engine is fired is the most critical time for having good filtration. So why don't they put on a filter that is as good as the one you buy at the dealer? Simple because it costs more. And since you will have to pay for all the rest of the oil filters they sell good ones at the dealer to protect your engine, and infact you cannot even buy the factory bulk filters anywhere.

 

I think that reads a little better, but just for luck, try putting a carriage return,(just hit enter,) between your paragraphs. Makes it lots easier to read, and you obviously have a lot you want to say, might as well let folks read it.

A problem with your theory. The F-150 comes with a MUCH better filter than the regular Ford Motorcraft. It's a Champion, painted to avoid brand legalities. They also come with the very good blend oil.

I am one of the few who use the Champion filter as it costs four-five times as much as the lower quality Motorcraft filter.

As to using a very expensive filter on a first fire up, no, I know far too much about oil filters (lots of trips to oil school, and sold roughly a Supertanker full of filters over the decades) to bother putting a long life filter on something I'm gonna change in 200-800 miles.

Did you know that oil filters don't filter their best till they have about 3000 miles on them? True, and easily found info.

Did you know that even low brand (not bottom feeder) oil filters vastly exceed any engine requirements?
As does all the oil we use.
We toss our oil and filters away with hardly any use on them. I don't mind, as we are a filthy rich society that values waste.


Overkill is nonsense in warfare, defence firearms, or racing.
Um, it might exist in other areas though…
Chris

 

HaHa, yes I don't believe overkill exists in racing for sure, and the other ones not a bit.

Yes I do actually know quit a bit about oil filters. I am an ASE certified Master auto tech. And I have cut open the original oil filters from all three, and agree they are made by the same company as they all looked exactly alike, cheap! that is unless they have changed in the last 14 yrs since I quit working in a dealership.

personally there are a couple of oil filters I will never use again, Fram (only oil filter I have ever personally seen explode) and champion (only oil filter I ever had push the filter media out, and through one of my engines destroying a $3,000 engine in the process) and the bottom feeders as you put it don't even enter my radar screen.

Personally I prefer WIX filters even on my race engines, and of coarse I run full synthetic in that application without any question. Now on the race engines the oil gets changed about every 3 races (not passes but actual race days) but that is more due to fuel contamination than any thought that the oil might be breaking down. Also it's a lot cheaper to put in $70 worth of oil than rebuild a $11,000 engine.

 

Very easy to read. Thanks, and I mean that.

Champion has two grades, and the heavy one is almost bullet proof. They also build K&N, and the oem filter on the new F-150.

I had the ASE certs when I was a mechanic, then renewed them when I was a service writer, but after I got into parts, I stopped paying to take the test. Last year I helped one of my ex-employees take six certs, drilled him, etc. I notice it has even less practical stuff in it now than ten years ago.


As to the 'exploded' filter thing, sorry, it's impossible. Not that I haven’t seen a few dozen exploded filters, it's just not relevant to the filter. They are not supposed to receive that kind of pressure.
No production oil system on the road in the US has ever produced more than 120 lbs of oil pressure unless damaged.

A blown oil filter is ALWAYS caused by a stuck oil pressure release valve.

It takes 175 lbs (I have been paid to test them, oil schools) to bulge a filter, 220 lbs to separate even the cheapest filter from its gasket.
That's a 49 cent filter.
A Fram PH8a tested to 300 lbs. This isn't particularly high. The K&N goes out to 400...

So why do some filters explode? Because the cheap little oil pressure release valve in the oil pump becomes stuck. Then some motors can produce up to 400 lbs of oil pressure on thick cold oil.

NO oil filter can stand that, nor should they.

Slant six Mopars used to love to stick OPEN. No oil pressure. The 'fix' was to bang on the block with a heavy rubber mallet, just aft of the filter.

Some times they would stick closed, and then the 250lbs of pressure would blow the filters clean off, stripping the threads.

This was not as much fun as watching a 383 rip the head off the PH8a, when some one replaced the PH43 half quart with the longer one, not noticing that the short filter was developed solely because when engine torque rocked the motor in a turn, the steering link intercepted the longer filter.

That's why the shorter filter was developed. The mechanics used to tell people that Dodge went to the shorter filter to save money on the cost of the filter, and then put the longer, cheaper one on.
This also caused a lot of problems with incorrect amounts of oil in the 383..

Wix, good filters, but try this link. http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart5.htm

Parts guys have to learn this stuff, as the mechanics come to us when the dang thing don't work.

Of course, I also had to buy the stuff, negotiate the best deals, visit the plants, etc. That actually was kind of fun.

I’m pretty dated myself, but I still have friends in the industry, and only the minor details have changed.


Oh, well, we better give this thread back to the 785th argument about synthetic vs. almost synthetic.


Chris

 

I just traded a '93 F150 6cyl with 330,000 miles on it. Changed the oil and filter every 3k miles. Usually used regular 'ol Quakerstate. Engine still ran strong and passed emmissions with better numbers than some new cars.

Just bought a new 5.4 Screw Lariat 4x4 as a 3rd vehicle. Plan on running Motorcraft. Still undecided.

Commute 600 miles/week with a Jetta TDI diesel. Run Rotella synthetic and average 48 mpg.

Bottom line....whether you go synthetic or not, religously change the oil and filter and keep up with all the preventative maintenance.

 

Just bought a new 5.4 Screw Lariat 4x4 as a 3rd vehicle. Plan on running Motorcraft. Still undecided.

just use a oil filter with a good anti drain back valve like the fl820s and the mc 5w20 semi syntheitc oil.

 

If they are different length of carbon chains, they can't BE the same hydrocarbon.

A hydrocarbon with 13 carbon atoms is NOT the same hydrocarbon as one with 10 carbon atoms. It also has different lubricity properties, density, molecular weight and atomic spectra.