I always get a seventh or eighth opinion on what I want to do, and my most recently received advice (from pirate4x4) directly contradicted what I received here, so I am curious.

They recommended that I don't use rockwells, and instead use a 1 ton axle in the rear and a 1/2 ton in the front, with 44's in the back and 38's in the front. Their main excuse, I believe, was the weight of the rockwells. They also recommended I don't put an inch of lift, and instead just chop the body to hell, but that isn't really what I am asking about.

At first I called BS on running anything 1/2 ton. However, I figured I don't know most of anything, so I would then ask on your opinions on it.

They also mentioned the gearing of the rockwells, which then made me think of something myself. Although conditions will very, what is the wheel speeded to generally clean out boggers? They seemed to hint that I couldn't get enough speed with rockwells. I figured that 50mph wheel speed would clean them, but I never actually paid attention to that before.

So, since this is a fullbodied, every bit of 10,000lbs when finished truck, do they have anything worth listening to here? I know reducing that weight would really help, but without chopping the body, or doing anything radical like a tube frame aluminum body, that wouldn't really be possible.

 

Also, has anyone had any experience with http://generalspringkc.com/ ? They contacted me at pirate4x4 regarding my request for lifted springs. We have been in correspondence for about a month now measuring and discussing. They gave me a price of ~$600 for all including mains and 2 support leaves on the rear, and mains and I believe 3 supports on the front. I would then take his leaves and have my old ones added locally.

Does that seem like a decent price? He said I wouldn't get that much noticable sag vs. having a completely new stack, and it would be much much cheaper. Is that also true?

 

You asked about building a "serious mud machine". Does it make sense to you to put a smaller tires on something you're building for serious mud? You asked a rock crawling forum for opinions on a mud truck . . . let's think about this . . .

We already gave you PLENTY of info. If you don't like it or don't believe it then just go build your truck the way YOU want to. I'd rather not type another novel like I did in the last thread (along with everyone else here who helped you out) but if you need a link to it let me know and I'll find it for you. Simple logic should tell you that 1/2 running gear is not going to survive high horsepower with a decent sized tire.

Rockwells are geared at 6.72, with no other available options at this time. With a 44" tire 3400 RPM will put you at approximately 65 MPH. That should be plenty to clean most mud from a bogger. If you're in low gear you'll be at 5500-6000 RPM at around 50 MPH which is really where you'll want to be to get optimum HP and torque when you hit a pit anyway.

10,000 pounds shouldn't be happening unless you're putting a LOT of extra junk on your truck. Mine weighs barely over 7K, being a Supercab. If it had two Rockwell steering axles I'd still be under 8K.

 

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=368951

There is the link for those interested. A fail to see where I said "serious mud machine", but instead listed what I did want to do, which would be an occasional competition and for playing around locally.

There are mudders at the rockcrawling forum, and those people happen to be the ones that replied.

I also fail to see the reason why everyone here is hateful. Yes, I ask a lot of questions, but that is because I rather not screw up and waste money. You never answered all of my questions because a few of you got in an argument over meaningless stuff instead of trying to be helpful. I never doubted anything you have ever said, nor did I say anything against it (and the questions I had at pirate4x4 were regarding stuff I seen in their forum). I would see you having an objection to me asking questions if I never followed a single one, but instead I have listened and followed all. I am even getting getting rockwells for the white truck. Instead of praising that (I have seen many threads around here when people ask about upgrading their axles and everyone goes nuts because they aren't wanting to run 44's on stock axles), you instead spent a good 15 posts (or probably more) bitching about the engine in the truck.

I guess the bigger the site, the bigger the post count, the bigger the truck, the bigger the ego. I can't see how I have pissed anyone off, but it makes since on why this forum is a very small community consisting of just a few of the old forummers, since you run everyone else off. It is sad really, as their is a lot of knowledge in this forum, but no one wants to let it out. Finding a helpful forum with as much knowledge as this one has will be hard, but I am not really getting anything useful from here.

Should I post project pics of the mud truck (since it is nearly completely torn apart), or would I receive stupid comments such as the above? Well, I suppose that is the first dumb question I have asked here.

 

You must have edited your post removing most of the unhelpful comments, so as thus, I will respond to the help. I am leaving my other post intact, as afterall, it is still the damn truth.

That is what I figured. I never paid attention when mudding before, so I never gave it any thought until they said something about it.

I was considering adding a bunch of extra steel, winches, and other addons. I am wondering if that is really a good idea afterall. It probably wouldn't make that much of a difference really, considering the weight to begin with as long as I make sure to keep the way somewhat level from the front to back.

----

I will probably stick with the rockwell idea, since you hinted that it was still a good idea. The locals also recommended that method, but I am not sure of their actual experience. Just because you own a 4x4 shop really doesn't mean that much in this small town, since the majority of your customers won't ever see offroad.

 

My edit was only an addition. I didn't remove anything from my original post. I did, however, misquote you. You didn't ask about building a serious mud truck, you asked about building a "real mud truck". https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s...d.php?t=361446

If you read through that post you'll find that we're all more than helpful here. What I don't appreciate is spending a lot of time to help someone and then have them completely ignore the advice and start asking the same questions again because they heard this and that from someone else. If you don't trust our advice and opinions then there's no need to ask in the first place. See what I'm getting at? I'm not trying to be a dick here. It's obvious from the original thread which I just linked that I've been trying to help you. This has nothing to do with ego, some of us have done our research and built stuff and THAT is how we know just the same as some of us have not and wound up buying trucks with double stacked blocks and scary steering. Jive?

Where were you thinking of adding a bunch of extra steel and what other add ons besides winches are you considering?

 

Of course when someone else recommends something completely different, I will be doubting your advice, which is why I came back here. It wasn't from jack down the street, but instead from an offroad speciality site (which, although it is made for rockcrawling, there are a lot of mudding information there). Yes, you were helpful there, and got me started on a lot of ideas that I wouldn't otherwise have had. However, that doesn't overshadow the fact of the hateful comments that appeared later in that thread, and especially in my other thread. You will see in the threads that I am using very many of your ideas. You may also notice, even in this topic post, I called BS on them and not you here (although I was curious as to the 1 ton vs. rockwell setup). To put greater emphasis on, I am not denying your help one bit, as the first page of the thread you linked to was nothing but help. What I am unhappy about is the general attitude of the forum.

Your double stacked blocks thing was probably directed at the white truck. Well, I would like for you to know (that thanks to this forum), I am putting a proper lift on it when I swap in the rockwells. However, at the same rate, there would be no point in me posting about that as I would get retarded comments as per usual.

Box in the frame, complete skid plates, and mainly just protective stuff for the underneith and cab. Actually, it really isn't as much for protection as for keeping most of the mud from getting caked in the parts the truck. 100 pounds of steel is worth keeping 300 pounds of mud off, I would think. I was amazed when I read that you can get 300 pounds of mud in your truck during a few good runs. That is a lot of mud. I was also going to move the radiator to the bed using a setup like pro's (hey, another piece of evidense where you were helpful and I listened), along with the fuel cell. Granted, the weight added from that is fairly small, but all of it adds up. It probably won't hit 10,000lbs, but it would probably be in the 9,000's if I get a very good winch.

Don't stock f250's weigh 6,000lbs? That is what I was going on.

 

There's no need to box the frame on these trucks. On most of these older frames the critical areas are already boxed. Hangers and cross supports that you'll need to make the hangers work might account for another 100 pounds of steel and will add enough support to handle any abuse you put it through short of jumping the truck. My opinion is don't bother with a winch. When you get a big truck like these stuck it takes a HELL of a winch to pull it out. A 10-12K will usually not do the trick. For the most part I think it's a lot of added expense and extra weight for something that won't be of much benefit to you. On a trail rig I'd definitely say go for it OR if you can get set up with a PTO winch that will pull 20K you might be okay.

I know they advised you against a lift at Pirate but I'll tell you I believe their advice is geared toward a mud DRAG truck not a bogger so much. In most mud drags you're only looking at 4-6" of mud but the idea is to blast through it as fast as possible. When you're bogging you could be looking at 20+ inches of mud. If you don't have enough lift you're dragging your frame and you'll come do a dead stop. This being the case if you lift it enough skid plates probably won't be needed. If you're concerned about the weight of mud you can add aluminum sheeting to the under-side of the truck to keep it out. I have heard that street signs work great for this and can be had for free. This is, of course, not legal so I would never recommend it. But if a person did have a few laying around you could cover your junk up to keep mud out without adding much weight. If you do something like this make sure you pull them periodically and clean everything out as they'll tend to retain junk up in them which can rust your truck out.

For axles, if you go back and research this forum a bit you'll find 1 ton junk will work fine for 44's. You will need some upgrades for them with the horsepower you're talking about running though. I believe when we talked about this before you didn't want the expense of a Dana 60 with CTM's and chromoly shafts which is why the Rockwell looked to be the best choice.

 

rather than adding the weight of the metal boxing everything in (which I highly recommend against because if you don't fill every hole in the frame solid and completely seal the frame so it would hold air it will get mud, and water into the box which you then will not be able to get out, and will rust the frame from the inside out) I recommend before everytime your gonna go play in the mud, spray the underside of hte truck down with a mixture of used motor oil, and diesel fuel I use a sprayer for spraying weedkillers like you can buy at any home improvement store or even wall mart.
My only issue with the rockwells is that they are huge, and will drag you down in thick deep mud, but I don't recommend that you runn a 1/2ton front end (did I just say that?) the rockies are cool but really not good for mud competition events so if you looking at mud bogs and running 44s then run 1 ton stuff front, and rear with the proper upgrades if your talking mud drags shorter thinner tires are in order. depending on the hp your putting out clear down to 34x9.50 swampers or 35x10.50 boggers or one of the best is the 38.5x11.00 boggers

 

There is no point in adding 100lbs to keep mud off the bottom of the truck if it will not be used for skid plates as well. Simple sheetmetal that is bolted or riveted to the frame would be more practical. This would probably add 25 lbs.

You are not likely to get into the 9,000lb range. My truck (check sig) weigs about 7.600 lbs, and I have f/r ranchhands which are useless (until road rage takes over).

Yeah, theres people on Pirate4x4 who mud, and know what they are talking about, but when someone tells you to run 1/2ton axles up front, you know they are insane, not educated on the matter, foolish, or trying to get you into trouble later. Ivan, Pro, Monterbaby, and Fishy are the most common frequenters here who really know what they are talking about, and really know what they are doing. On pirate, I know of one person (besides the before mentioned who also visit that site) of whom I could ask a mudding question to and get the right answer/advice: Buzziscrazy. Do you know what he is doing right now? Putting rockwells under his "Project Problem Child" F- ?50(either a 2 or 350, dont remember). Anyways, my point is, if someone offers conflicting info, or "facts", then I would stick to the FTE Offroading Forum's answers. Sure, those at pirate know a lot about rockcrawling. It is also a forum full of internet renegades and hell-raisers, completely unmonitered.

I honestly dont even think you need rockwells. Pro held out for a long time with a near stock D60 and D70U (until recently) and KO has his stockers still (I think)- both run 44's.

 

For what, a sand rail!? Maybe for a mud dragger only. Its a ridiculous recipe for anything else. Do you know how many guys at Pirate are running rockwells? Tons. And they are still breaking them in lightweight buggies. And whats up with saying peeps are hatefull? Don't ask for advice if you can't take it along with constructive criticism. You've already been given good advice. Sure, you could find another hundred opinions but hey, you know what they say about opinions. You don't NEED rockwells. But given with the stated combo you wanted to run, its intended use, and $ you wanted to spend, they are the optimal choice.

 

I had to box in the front section of the frame on the white truck because the gearbox did a number on it and actually bent the frame. I didn't really mean boxing in the entire frame, just around the engine area.

I was going to go with PTO, as no typical electric goes that high from what I have seen. A lot of the friends I go with don't have a truck big enough to pull me out if I would get buried. There is no bigger pain in the *** than having to go get a tractor. Granted at comps there would be no need.

After his last post saying he only knows about mud drags, I picked up on that, and now I have decided that everything he is talking about is devoted to drags and not bogs, and weight (like rockwell weight) would be much more of an issue in drags.

I was going to use thin guage metal (as I don't have the equipment to properly work with aluminum). I was thinking about having a way to clip it on the entire underneith of the truck right above the driveshafts coming out of the tcase. This would prevent 99% of the mud from ever getting in the entire compartment, up in the bed, or anything. It would just hit and fall off. When I am done, I can unclip and jetspray.

That is right, since I will be running stock for a while. 1 dana 60 is a good thousand, while I have now found places selling a pair of rockwells for $800. I would be nearly stupid not to get the rockwells with that kind of choice.

See, this is what I am talking about, and what they hinted about as well. It would only cost about $400 more to go with a 60/70 combo. If that would really make a difference in my performance, I would go that route. If the difference is only like a foot, I would be less inclined to jump on the 1 ton route.

He broke his axles? I didn't hear about that one.

I know I don't need rockwells, but I was going to go with that route because of the price difference. If you think that I would see a significant performance difference, I would get the 1 tons.

I don't know of anyone locally who runs rockwells (everyone just uses 1 tons), so I don't have any judge on that personally.

There is a big difference between constructive criticism and being bitchy.

That is what I wanted to hear. I have now got the money for the axles, so I am currently shopping around.

 

Rockwells really arent all that strong... dont get me wrong, they are hella stout, but Pro's axles would kick a stock 2.5's ***. The only advantage of a stock 2.5 is the availability and realtively low cost of replacement parts.

USA6x6 is in OK, they sell everything you need.



Theres a difference in being bitchy and pointing out your redundant post patterns... Its ok, looky here, Ivan and Pro are helping ...again...

 

Yes, no one is being bitchy in this thread. Amazing that when you point it out, they stop, isn't it? Pro is actually posting in this thread, which I am somewhat surprised, since in the last thread he got bitchy, I said something about it, and he stopped posting altogether.

You are right about the strength, which is why pro isn't hurrying up replacing his with rockwells. However stock vs. stock and upgraded vs. upgraded, the rockwells are stronger. Since I will be running stock for a while on no matter what axle I get, that is also an important factor.

 

I admit I get frustrated when I try to give people advice and they just don't get it, and keep asking the same questions over and over again hoping that somebody will finally tell them what they want to hear. I don't recall exactly the thread your referring too, but I probably just got fed up with you and stopped responding. That doesn't make me bitchy, that makes me a pragmatist. I think Ivan's gotten to the same point. Were you the guy who didn't know what motor he had but mysteriously guessed it had exactly 612 hp?

Anyways, while its true my axle shafts are now stronger than a stock 2.5 rockwell, there is a far bigger picture. I've dumped 3k of upgrades alone into my axle and a stock rockwell still has a stronger housing, knuckles, pinion, gears, etc. etc. If I wasn't planning on reusing this axle in a trail rig I wouldn't have bothered and just put in a rockwell. Axle shaft strength is great, but doesn't do you much good when your break your knuckle in half.