Good post Trigger, and I appreciate the fact that you held your cool here. When I used the word "locking" I did not mean to infer that their jaws locked. I should have said they have the indication of being locked by the resistance they give when trying to get them to let go. The amount of pressure they can produce is known for fact, and for sure by anyone that has ever had one clamp down on their bodily limb...


As I said before , to "ban" a breed for its behavior is not the right thing to do, but may I ask, what can be done to make PB owners realize that their loving pet has the capability and breeding within them to inflict serious harm and death to humans ? I agree the media does do its harm to the PB's being stereotyped, but how many of the reports of humans being mutilated or killed by PB's are without foundation ? Is the rap the PB's are getting for attacking people all just pumped up nonsense ? I for one , know a least one person on my street that was mutilated by one, UNPROVOKED as it was....

 

I've read some pretty exaggerated claims on pitbull bite pressures as well.
Suffice to say, they exert more than the average dog does, and quite enough to do substantial damage in a short time. The only substantiated bite pressure I've seen attributed to a pitbull by way of a bite meter was around 550 PSI. I'll try to find the link.

For giggles, the same site lists the biting pressure of other animals as such;
(as best as I remember, but still pretty close)

1.) Hyena = 800 PSI
2.) Male African Lion = 1000 PSI
3.) North American Grizzly = 1200 PSI
4.) Great White Shark = 1500 PSI
5.) Saltwater Crocodile = 3800 PSI-measured before bite meter shattered.

 

What ever your opinion is, the bottom line is that people are responsible for this delema and so is this particular breed of dog; otherwise there would be no posts here or communities trying to band pits or the news media reporting these attacks.

There is problem here and no viable solution.

On a different kind of animal, we did have a neighbor here who had an exotic pet for a while, but was told to give it up to the zoo. This animal had the potential to shred anything it wanted to.

I'm not comparing this animal to a pit. There's no comparison.

It's just that something has to be done, but what.

Me personally, it doesn't matter either way.

I stopped having dogs a long time ago.

For me it was too much of a liability and responsibility.

All I can say is for dog owners, I hope you don't get on the wrong end of a law suit.

 

Good info Sinister73,

I have never been bitten by any dogs, so I cannot testify which breed would hurt the worst. Lets see now, if a person took a piece of one inch square stock metal , placed it upright on their hand, then let a forklift sit a 550 lb weight on top of the square stock, is that a accurate way of describing what 550 pounds per square inch of jaw pressure would feel like ?

 

500 p.s.i is alot of pressure.

Isn't the area of a dog's tooth much smaller than 1 square inch?

I guess that would make the p.s.i. much higher, I think.

And Sinister73, my neighbor's pet had the bitting pressure of # 2.

Just thought I mention that for fun.

 

I could'int tell you Greg, fortunately I've never been privy to having my hand in that situation. I'm not gonna pretend to know exactly how they determine PSI of an animal bite, though I imagine the actual pressure exerted would depend on many factors, not least of which is the position of the jaw during the bite. The closer your appendage to the point where the jaw hinges to the skull, the greater the pressure exerted. Also the position of the animals neck will greatly affect how much pressure can be exerted by the jaw muscles.

I'll try later to find that link for you ben, I'm not trying to discredit you, it may well be as you say if you've actually seen bite meters reflecting your claim, but going by the internet, there are simply too many dog enthusiasts who greatly exagerate the biting pressure of a pitbull, I've heard as much as a ton per sq in, which is absurd when you consider the amount of skeletal muscle which would be required in the jaw and neck area for a bite like that, pitbulls do not have steel tendons...lol. Also theres the misconception of a "lock jaw". These animals do not possess any locking mechanisms in their mouths, they simply bite very hard and can be so tempermental that they simply will not let go. Bite pressure would not be affected by tooth count at all.
An animal could be completely toothless or have a mouthful of teeth and it would have the same pressure, the impact points of the teeth do not magnify the actual pressure applied, just the percieved pressure would be more concentrated in one area over another.

 

Hmm, good point. I wonder how the test engineers translate jaw pressure in to psi, when the teeth are the pressure points ? I know of no animal that has square teeth. Maybe they put a one inch square plate in their mouth and let them clamp on it. I dunno...

I do know I wasnt home when my mail lady got attacked. My neighbor said he heard her screams and looked out the window. He grabbed a 3 inch diameter piece of firewood off the fireplace and run to her . When he got there, she had pulled up in to the fetal position to protect her throat. The PB had pulled her whole tricep muscle off of the bone and the skin from the top of her arm to her elbow was just hanging with the bone exposed. He had to keep hitting the PB over the head with the log until it lost consiousness , before it would release its grip on her. It was put down later by order of the court.

 

I've got a nice big scar that runs on the inside and outside of my mouth from when I has 8 years old. You can't really tell where it ripped my tear duct anymore, after the 4th surgery. My crime? Opening a door to play w/ some pits that I'd played with a few dozen times. Didn't even have time to think, opened the door and was on the ground w/ a dog attached to my face. They were happy as can be right afterward, acting like nothing happened (according to my uncle anyway).

A cousin has near the exact same story (he got college paid for out of his though).

My ~65 year old neighbor and her dog (25 lb. mut) got attacked about 2 months ago while out for a walk. They had walked this route where the dogs were atleast 1K times(literally). The dogs had never acted aggressive at all(to me either), the only out of the ordinary was that she was walking on there side of the street as someone was mowing on the other. They jumped the fence (4 ft. chain link), and though she doesn't remember anything, she came-to on the ground with over 100 holes in her and her dog lifeless. I went and put a leash on the pits, who tried to lick me to death (again acting like nothing happened, just a little excited). She is just starting to walk again.

All of these dogs were pits (3 had papers). None of them had ever snapped at anyone or anything close according to the owners.

 

My only point is that not all of them are violent unruly dogs. My dog is one of the only dogs I have ever seen that will take a dog treat I am holding with my teeth, and not rip my face off. My father has hated dogs as long as I can remember. When he visited last year I came home to find him sitting on the couch propped up on 90lb pit bull he just met. They were both happy. He asks me about the dog everytime he calls.

As for biting pressure I can still not find any hard numbers. This link: http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqfaq.html is the only thing I can find. It seems to me it would be extremely hard to test (like why is the dog biting? where is it measured?). I would still be very surprised if it was much higher than other breeds. Maybe versus the dogs weight, but I have a hard time believing a bull mastiff (think Hooch) doesn't bite as strong as a pit.

Let me ask you this: If these people (dogfighters, morons) that want a tough mean dog cant get pit bulls what will they do? They will train other breeds to do what they want. Dogs can be trained for anything, they just want to make owners happy. Unfortunatly pits are perfect for these people. I believe if it was'nt pits it would be something else.

There are a few other breeds that look (and act) very similar Staffordshire is the main one. Are these to be banned too?

Of course banning them entirely is the easiest way, just not the right way.
Anybody watch that show animal police on animal planet. Do you see how these "people" treat the dogs, and make them fight, its horrible. And alot of times in places they are already banned. Imagine that, a criminal breaking several laws at a time. Not to mention they probably stole the dog in the first place.

Anyway I respect everyones opinion, if you've had a bad experience I'm sorry. All I can do is hold myself responsible for my own dogs.

 

I may be misinformed, and correct me if so, but I believe the bull terrier was bred to handle bulls , like a border collie is bred to herd. The bull terrier ( I think the "pit" came in after the introduction of dog fighting pits ? ) is built to fight. It is a low to the ground dog , that can easily get the opponent off of its feet. The big chest and strong jaws are genetically designed to resist frontal attacks and engage in throat death hold type of jaw pressures....

I grew up in the country and had all kinds of dogs around the farm, all the time. I have watched and broke up a lot of dog fights, it is a alpha thing with them, yet never once had a dog kill the other. The loser would always roll belly up in submisson, then the winner would back off. The PB dog is preened and bred for fighting other dogs and will always have that trait deep down in them. I dont think other breeds will ever fill the bill for the sadistic dog fighters, which will bring less money, so I think the PB's will remain the contender for the illegal dog fights. ....

What is sad about all of this is, the animal is a victim of its own design. I am sure that there are a lot of people out here that have PB's that are real sweethearts as pets. And am sure if they do and they are reading this thread, they are getting red around the collar. But that said, these PB owners are still taking that hidden chance , of one day that the natural instinct for the PB to just come out, and it just reacts to it. I think we see that in these unprovoked attacks on humans. I do not want to see ANY breed of dog banned, I just wish that irresponsible and cruel people could be banned from owning PB's . Maybe then the breed could be genetically calmed down, and be trusted fully to be a safer pet. jmo

 

There is no argument that the dogs were bred (from existing breeds obviously) to fight. Now if humans can breed them, I believe that with very selective breeding and good training most of this can be reversed. In the past before the negative publicity pits were accepted as "safe pets". There are many many examples of famous people owning them, even TV shows (little rascals, a group of kids I might add). Like I mentioned earlier it was on several American posters in WWI stating "I am neutral but not afraid of any of them".

The point is what has changed to make them unacceptable? I'll let you answer that for yourself. Is it more dogs used for fighting? Has the entire breed gone crazy?

The reason most pit bull fights result in death is they are so stubborn they never give up. They can be seconds from death and still keep going, to please their masters. When two dogs like this are fighting there is only one way to win. If you ever see a documentary on dogfighting watch it, it will probably make you sick. One dog can be teetering on its feet ready to drop, then it will look at its owner, and go in again for the final time.

These animals are not a victim of their own design they are a victim of their owners and always have been.

Also by saying that no other dog will fit the bill for dogfighting you are saying that these types of bans are doomed to fail. Dogfighting is already illegal the people are already criminals, they aren't just going to quit. They already have the most violent and abused dogs, the ones most likely to attack. They will continue to train their dogs and find ways to get around the system. Thats what they do, they are criminals.

I do believe that any dog trained to fight cannot be trusted, but not because of their breed. They have been abused, in some cases fed gunpowder to make them crazy. Unfortunately there is only one way to handle them. I have had my dogs since birth and their parents before that. I dont believe im taking any chance by having them.

 

Someone mentioned adopting a adult pit. You still have to be carefull with adoption. (I know too many lawyers) When I was a kid, after Truman's cousin sold the house to a lawyer in training, I (being a five year old kid at the time) ran over when they got home to show them my cork rifle, that I got for the fourth of July. I was holding it above my head the whole time, and he opened the door and was saying "neat" when the German Shepard they adopted jumped out and ripped off my nose (almost completely, had 1/8 inch of skin retaining it between my eyes). After a trip to the emergency room, where they said "not enough to sew, we just have to bandage him up and hope the scars aren't too bad" animal control came out and gave him two choices. Put the dog down or move, he took the later and I believe he went after the place he adopted the dog from. To this day, Shepards are one of my favorite breeds, yet Pit's and dobers (almost became a enuich) are ones I stay far away from.

 

Maybe someone can answer this question, because for the life of me I just don't get it. We're long-time dog lovers and owners, but we live in a neighborhood full of kids. Why would anyone consider a breed that's going to make them an automatic target for a lawsuit if/when anything goes wrong? That, to me, is the canine equivalent of buying a Fiat just to prove to your friends and neighbors that they really aren't as bad as they're made out to be.

There's no percentage in testing the odds- my own opinion.

 

Not only a law suit, but possible jail time.

That Lady that lost her 12 year old son to the family pits(2) here in S.F. made the comment "MAYBE IT WAS HIS TIME TO GO".

Was she fricken serious?

She may be looking at jail time.

 

I really don't understand why people keep alot of breeds as pets. It seems many just want the image the dog gives them. It's simple, don't buy working breeds as pets. They need jobs, and will make up their own jobs or just go crazy if they don't have one. Often this goes toward protecting(be it property or owner). If they are making up their own jobs, obviously they haven't been trained for it. This is when the bad stuff happens.

I really don't have anything against the Pit (my experiences did more good than they hurt), they can serve their purpose very well. I pet and play w/ a few at the dog park regularly, which is something very important if you must keep them (or similar) as pets. Socializing (from early on) is the best thing you can do for a pit that lives in the city. I assure this won't keep them from protecting you/you're property if they needed to. If you don't have time for this, you don't have time for the dog, period.

Pit's weren't bred to not bite people, they're bred not to bite their handlers.

They're basically fearless, barely feel pain, can subdue an animal many times it's size, and don't stop till the jobs done. It's the perfect pet! Thanks, I'll keep my bird dog, it's alot easier to simulate what she was intended for.