88: I was eluding to the cost of living in related areas and did not bother to factor in the difference in the dollar which gets smaller every time the Euro goes up. The exchange rate would make little difference here in a depressed area where it costs about the same to live as it does in the major urban centres when you figure out the distance we travel to do everything and all the other added costs of this geographic area where our youngest son spends $1000 Can.dollars a month in our coldest winter months to heat his 2 story and keep his kids warm . ( Gotta get that kid switched to gas ).

As for latch key kids at any price I was eluding to the fact that not so many years ago in our countries one household income and a steady job bought you a house , at least one car and put you in the working middle class or "The American Dream". That's exactly what it is now , a dream .

As for your union bashing from your not too pleasent experience from what I can gather , I guess all the unionized GM workers here that produce 1/2 GM's
profit with 1/8 of their work force must just be diligent enough to create this kind of profit while still not doing their job .Imagine how GM could prosper if they just moved all their production here to our unionized plants where they also have to compete with Honda and Toyota for skilled ,(or not so skilled in your opinion), workers . I guess we'd better start building additions on that old GM Plant in Oshawa.

As I stated I'm happy for any one that can survive on 30 to 40 grand a year but that is what I made here in the early 70's to maintain a regular working man's life style and the wife stayed at home untill our youngest was 16 just as she agreed to before we had any children . Her career after that added the frosting to our life style and contributed to the boys secondary education
which created a Network Administrator for a major Swiss company operating
here and the owner of his own Painting Company where they can earn enough money to live comfortably . Without any unions though so far .

 

Phydeaux88- I think you misunderstood. My household income isn't $27K , I was answering Silver Streak, who was commenting that a friend of his had a family of 7, made under $30K/yr, and lived OK, if not like a king. My thoughts were along the lines of "how is that possible. "
In the Portland, Or area, I estimated basic living costs at around $21K/yr, plus clothing and misc (let's guess $4K). Now...housing. Up here, you have to take a deep breath- a modest 3 br home could easily eat up another $20K/yr in payments and taxes, leaving us with...$45/yr take home ($60K/gross?) as a minimum income for what I'd describe as entry-level middle class. There isn't going to be a new PSD in the driveway with those kind of dollars, and we haven't considered things like savings, college, retirement, etc.

Jerry Gougeon- my father-in-law and his wife raised 5 children on a millwrights salary (yes, union). They didn't live luxuriously, by any means, but they never wanted for food on the table either. I don't think it's feasable to think about doing that today, with a single income- union or non-union wages, unless someone has an extremely good position. Those days, unfortunately, are over.

re: latchkey kids. We made the decision to cut back on lifestyle so my wife could be an at-home mom with the kids. It can be done (just not on $30K/yr ). When the kids were all in school full-time, she decided to embark on her second career as a teacher.

 

I must say I see a lot of heat in this discussion but not a lot of give and take. So be it, I will relate my stories and opinions.

Unions are not the root of all evils but they do share in the blame. Sure they protect there members and an unfortunate side of that is bad employees stay around to long. The problem being here is that most states here are not right to work states. The nice thing about right to work states is companies must follow laws when firing an employee. I don't think this is too much to ask. In an employment at will state they can fire you because they don't like the color of your hair and you have no recourse for this action.

As an ex union council rep I have sat in on more than a few disciplinary actions. It seemed to me that half the cases I sat in on only about 50% of the cases where justified. Provided that a company rules has not been broken it takes about a year to terminate someone for cause. In many cases I think this is to long but in others I see the employee make improvements and turn it around. And some who also trains employees I would rather see an employee turn it around rather the train someone new.

Also don’t lump all unions in the same boat. We get job protection in ours from a small seniority system but very few guaranteed pay raises. Ours is based on performance as rated by our supervisors.

Lets take about my favorite non-union company, Walmart. Now I don’t know about your state but here they offer no medical insureance of any type. In fact when they hire you they give you the state catistophic insurance form. This insurance is available to all and the mojoirity of the cost in paid by the tax payers of the state. I think this is totally irresponsible for a company of this size.

My daughter has a few friends that work there. They have been told that if you get sick to go to the emergency room for treatment. In this state you cannot be turned away even if you can’t pay. This does nothing but increase medical cost for everyone.

In the end it is really up to the companies to determine if they sooner or later want a union. If the company treats its employees fairly with a good wage then the union won’t come stiffing around. For every story you can come up with about how a union is bad I can come up with one on how it helps. Every company I have ever seen that as treated there employees well there is not a union and the workers don’t want one. On the other hand if a company has taken advantage of there employees a union is in place or one is trying to form. In my opinion you are seeing much more of the later today than the former. If a employer will take care of there employees the employees will take care of the company. It really is a easy thing to do.

For the record I don’t like unions but see it as a necessary evil. Most of the bigger companies in the US today don’t care about there employees. We are just another piece of equipment that can be interchanged on a moments notice. By the way that is a quote from an ex CEO of mine.

 

In her book, "The End of Detroit: How the Big Three Lost Their Grip on the American Car Market," Micheline Maynard suggests that U.S. automakers are run by MBAs and sometimes viewed as banks that make cars. By contrast, foreign automotive companies are run by engineers and manufacturing experts. It's easy to accept that view when approximately one-third of the vehicles sold by the Big Three go to rental car companies, employees/retirees, suppliers, as well as dealers and their families, whereas foreign automakers sell less than 10% in these areas but rather focus on individual sales

This has been the way of most American manufacturing companies for decades. This attitude is now deeply engrained in our health care industry. And we all know how thats going. Its all about the buck, not about the product which if done properly gets you the buck.

Ever notice how most CEOs, COOs and company Presidents have finance backgrounds and not manufacturing/operations backgrounds. Sad state of affairs. America is in for a rude awakening.

Dukster

 

tmyers : I agree whole heartedly : I too was a Union Steward with United Steel Workers in an automotive parts pressing plant and later in an Explosive Manufacturing (Dynamite) Plant and found the same thing . Many grievences were frivilous but many also served a purpose to protect the employees from unacceptable practises of the Company .

While Unions have already served their original purpose to set up decent working and health and safety regulations and a bargianing commitee to deal with wage and benifit concerns which are now legislated in many areas due to the constant activity of the unions over the past 100 years they still remain a necessary part of our society . Just as Nuclear Weapons offer a threat to deter nuclear aggression and remain a necessary evil today so do unions offer a threat to prevent Companies that treat employees as disposable commodities from regressing to the slave labour days of the 1800 when most of our major industrial giants of today, (that have not already been sold off to foreign interests), accumulated their wealth while reaping 300 & 400% profits on the sweat and backs of the working poor .

With the Global pressure that is going to be exerted on our economy in the next 10 years I can see the unions again having and ever increasing part to play in our society if it is only to try to keep jobs on our soil .

 

And people were much more financially responsible at that time. How much money do you think the average American family throws out the window on useless crap every month? Probably $1000 or more around here, maybe more or less elsewhere. Even the poor people here have cable TV, cell phones, a PS2, X-Box or something similar, computer with internet access and who knows what else. People used to eat at home. Most families probably eat out at least 2 or 3 times a week now. Almost any non-fast food joint will cost $50 for a family of 4. People now days will buy a $40k SUV to do the job that a $18k mini van will do just as well, and they buy a new one every 2 or 3 years. Don't forget about the insurance they have to pay for all that 4wd that they don't really need. And heaven forbid they don't have a Jet Ski or dirt bike for every kid and go to the lake every weekend. Don't forget about sports. Every kid has to be on the "elite" team in a league that costs 10 times as much as the city league team. It never ceases to amaze me how money people will throw away on nothing and then cry because they are broke.

 

Good points, and also very true. As a personal note (and a quite irrational note, I'll admit), I'll take exception with the Minivan quip, because I loathe and despise them. The problem here is that people are not given any alternative to minivans other than SUVs. There are no rear drive V8 powered full sized wagons available except the brand new Magnum from Dodge. My pop had a Caprice Estate Wagon and my Uncle had a Colony Park wagon and let me tell you, they would drive through any snow storm short of 2 feet, no problem. Also had more room and utility than a minivan, rode nicer, looked way better, were much easier to perform maintenance and repairs on, and the EFI equipped one (the Colony Park) would spank a minivan for fuel economy on the highway. The only equivalent to either of these wonderful cars nowadays would be an SUV, with all the added weight and girth.

 

Yes and how high gas prices are. Someone said, "Its not the high cost of living, it's the cost of high living."
I'd rather drive my '05 SD V10 but we also love our dodge mini van. Lots of room,plenty power, good in snow and 25 mpg. That is ave mpg for the last 18,000 miles.

 

Regardless of how fruggle with a buck one is , when the products we produce to support the lifestyle we enjoy and are priced for that market here in America are not affordable to those that are creating the product or the lifestyle , our economy is in deep do do and will be taking a serious hit in the near future .

Less demand only means less product which means less real jobs at home . If the profits being made on our products were being invested in keeping our economy strong at home and a perportionate amount was being invested in the working class that is the grease that lubricates the wheels of this machine , we could again build a strong world economy .

When all the profits are being sucked away to invest abroad to make a faster ,larger profit it is only a matter of time before the "me" philosophy bankrupts the country .

Also when our industries are once again being run by people who know what it takes to create a saleable , reliable product the first time out instead of bankers and investment brokers and absentee engineers from head office we will once again see an economy that could compete on the world market and at least hold our own against the Euro Buck .

I'd bet when Iraq signed oil contracts with 3 seperate countries was the day
George decided there was a great need to be in Iraq.

We can not protect our dominant position and dollar on the world market any more by simply going farther in debt and spending our grand children's future .
It will always be the working class that pays the bills just as it has always been .

Democracy also means unlimited profit margins for those that would rape every dime from our land unrestricted and without conscience . Look back folks and you will see that it has happened before when we dealt with real money but it is all now set up so the takers never fall again with a paper chase at the stock market and forgien banking .

I've already got a few extra holes in my belt in preperation for the lean times ahead .

No country on earth can afford an additional 300 billion dollar debt at the present state of world economics and global trade that is taking place .

300 billion would make my country debt free and all our tax dollars would be running the country and paying the bills instead of $.72 on the dollar going to interest on our debt .

Sad but true , we can only spend so much of our future now without creating serious problems and we are at that point already .

Living on ifcome instead of income only works as long as the ifcome happens to come about some day .

 

Hey, that "ifcome" thing was pretty clever.

 

Ruckus: That was derived from the scenerio where half the country is now living on the debt of their plastic and paying down the interest every month instead of the principle .

The banks just love it at around 28% when compounded and will keep upping your limit till it is higher than your income . Laughing all the way to record profits every year for those guys .

 

Jerry why you always raggin on the US when acording to your profile you live in Canada

 

You know- Canadian or not, Jerry had a few valid points in that post.

 

He had a couple that were marginaly valid. All he does is complain about the way things are done in this country and acts as if we (the US) were the cause of the worlds problems. That is just flat not true. I dont want to get into a pissin contest but I could sure point out a few things wrong in Canada or Europe, or the Far East, or South America, etc.
I have had enough of people that want to complain about everything but have no solutions.

 

Phydeaux88- fair enough. This discussion gets to the heart of something that's been bothering me mightily for a while now- in the context of investing, not social commentary. I look at charts of financials (banks, insurance co's), manufacturing, congomerates- and can't help but wonder what those charts will look like in 3 years...5 years...10 years. For these companies to grow, they need a viable economy to function in- on a worldwide basis. At the same time, the US may not be the root of all evil, but we're sure the heck the source of much of the world's wealth. Without a healthy, vibrant economy here, the rest of the world, economically, isn't going anywhere either. Like it or not, we're the 600 lb gorilla in the world's economy.

That circles us right back around to the american consumer. His/her ability to...well...consume...has a direct impact on the standard of living in places far away with names we can't even pronounce. It's fine and good to export jobs to China, as long as we understand that it's the US consumer that will be the largest market for the finished product. If wages drop too low, or unemployment gets too high here, the resulting drop in consumption will echo around the world. I'm not sure that concept plays well in Corporate Boardrooms or the halls of power, where the next quarters results are the real focus, not the next decades.