Silver Streak $8/hr will go a long way here. That's about $16k/yr per person, so possibly $32k/household. Sounds like decent money to me. I know lots of people that live on less and still manage to have some left over.

You're kidding, I hope. We can't hire a lot kid for $8/hr.

 

I am sensing a bit of hostility. I would like to go on record here at this point to say that I certainly meant no disrespect to anyone who disagrees with me. I am trying to point out that unions are not fully to blame, and only partially responsible, and that management and unions must work together. I fear a USA without unions, but I also fear a USA without industry. My point is that unions aren't needed if the employees are well treated. Nobody wants tomess with a good thing. Likewise, unions are needed if management becomes beligerant and the working conditions become substandard. I am fully aware that the government has organizations to watchdog this, but the watchdogs are owned and fed via "campaign contributions" by the very same people who are supposed to be being watched. Not a very effective situation. I just want to go on record right now, however, as saying I appologize to anyone I might have offended, and that I also am quite pleased with the counter points to my arguments, as there is alot of educated discussion going on here. That said, let the debate continue! (I love a juicy debate!)

 

Silver; $16,000 or $8.00 an hr. here boils down to around $10,000 a year take home and that's before one pays 8% Goods And Service Tax and 7% Sales Tax on every dime spent from it .

Social Assistance calculated in 1999 for a married couple with the average 2.2
children and the average free health care for them came out at $24,500 tax free this would sustain a family in subsidized housing (geared to income) and a strict bubget to make the month .

See how the cost of living differs in different geographic areas and industrial climates.

I have worked in both union and non union environments and did not see a lot of difference in the quality of the work being performed . The cost of the union does add some disadvantage to one at raise time though .

I agree that unions have reached a point where they now also protect those that do not wish to do their job with some effort and pride but I'm quite sure
the Gov. would not enforce the health and safety regulations and labour laws that protect those that do perform their duties with some effort if the unions were to fold . We all know what we had before they were formed and how many years of head busting went on by Company Employeed Enforcers to try and prevent them from even existing .

Henry ran Ford for years as an avid anti-unionist without difficulty but he was paying the best wages of the time to do so and even supplied some benifits .

As I have already posted "GM just announced in their past years profit statement that they earned 50% of their profits this year in Canada where 1/8 of their work force is employeed" . This in unionized plants where they pay enough to live here with some expectation of a prosoerous lifestyle and almost enough pension to survive when retiring. Funny how that works as well eh!

My wages have always been regulated by the requirments expected of me or the fact that I was handling raw Nitro Glycerin or loading live explosives or working in sour gas at 32% or 350,000 parts per million where the allowed exposure limit without supplied air is 10 ppm. for 4 hours .

I'm happy if some can survive at $8.00 per hour by both working and raising latch key kids to create an income of $16,000 but from what I understand of
North American Economics and following the money I'm more than convinced there is more than enough Corporate Profit being created to actually pay everyone that works enough to afford The American Dream which has been gradually eroded since the early 60's .

My serious working years are all but over and I got my share but I still fear for the fate of my Grand Children in a country that will suck all the profits from its
economy to invest in Foreign Lands because there is an opportunity to accumulate larger profits from the poverty stricken , unorganized , cheap labour of inhabitants .

Hopefully you are not employed at $8.00 per hour doing something that can be exported to China or wherever for $2.00 a day by your employer .

 

Jerry Gougeon- outstanding post. I'm not union, or involved in manufacturing- but I sell what they make. I also understand, clearly, someone has to be left that can afford the end product. I've seen the future as well- and it ain't all pretty.

 

Jerry three big errors in you analysis

1. You forgot the exchange rate $8.00 US does not equal $8.00 Canadian its more like $9.70 Canadian.

2. Silver said if both parties worked for $8.00/hr annual household income was $32K ($39K Candian) so no latchkey kids just to generate $16K

3. You assumed that we pay as much in taxes as Canadians do. Not true: worst case scenario single no dependants making $8.00/hr takes home about $13,500 not $10,000 as you stated was the case in Canada. With a couple of dependants (kids) that increases quickly because income tax will disappear and only Social Security and Medicare taxes remain, thats 7.5%, so that brings home $14,800 US.
One of the bennies of not living in a Socialistic country, your "free medical" isnt so free after all is it.

 

Most union worker's abuse their privileges and benefits.Especially, the bigger unions like UAW and Teamsters.I think most management teams have just gotten tired of arguing with them over every petty issue.This why everything is so outrageously expensive.This is just my opinion from what I have observed.

 

Ruckus
You observe well and accurately.

 

Phydeaux88- does it really matter? I don't know what stuff costs everywhere else, but how the heck does $25-27K/yr come close to supporting a family of 4? I have three kids, paid for cars, no debt, and clip every darned coupon there is. Run the numbers: Health Insurance, $5K/yr (wife's a teacher, or it'd be a lot more). Gas for two cars- $3K/yr(the third is company supplied, or it'd be more). Insurance- another $2K/yr. groceries- $6K around here, and we raise our own beef. Clothes for three teens...OK, lets not even go there. Utilities, another easy $5K/yr. That's $21K so far, and we're still living in a cardboard box and wearing throw-away sheets. Add in rent, clothes, and a few essentials like toothpaste, and I'm counting $40K as the minimum- and that's with teens (no daycare- which is unbelievably expensive). Now lets talk about college, savings, retirement...Yikes!

 

Polarbear, my best friend is supporting his family of 7 just fine on less than $30k/yr. They don't live like kings, but they do fine. His wife doesn't work because daycare for 3 of the 5 kids would cost more than she could make. The cost of living in his neck of the woods is less than it is here, or about anywhere, but as cost of living increases wages typically also increase.

 

The fact is, the market DOES pay people more where things cost more. In Wyoming, where a lot of places hire new workers at minimum wage they can get by (hence the term minimum). In Colorado, just an hour from here, they start the same job at $6.50, in Las Vegas...$8.00/hr.

As someone who works regionally, the one bummer is when I get sent out of the area and get sticker shock over the cost of items elsewhere.....

Jim

 

Silver- my hat's off to 'em if they can, but I bet they're doing it without health insurance. Out here on the left coast, it wouldn't even be conversational though.

 

They have health insurance through his non-union employer. There are very few full time positions here that don't have health insurance provided by the business.

 

They have health insurance through his non-union employer. There are very few full time positions here that don't have health insurance provided by the business.

The trend up here is to make it available, but there's still costs involved. Wife's coverage through the school district (yes, she's union) costs us a little over $430/mo for medical/dental/vision. This is less than half of what a high deductable/medical only policy costs on the private market- if you can get it. One of our children (special needs) cannot get insurance at any price in the private market- but that's another story.

my best friend is supporting his family of 7 just fine on less than $30k/yr. They don't live like kings, but they do fine.

That statement still stuns me- I've pencilled it in my mind every way to Sunday, and I cannot get it through my head that such a thing could be possible, unless they're living somewhere rent-free, or inherited some property. Again, father of three speaking here- I know what it costs, and I'm pretty darned conservative with a buck. I guess it comes down to the definition of "they don't live like kings, but they do fine."

 

never bought one never will. only buy american, my motto is if the manufacturer ends in a vowel or an N i aint buying!

 

Polarbear
Your annual household income is $27K and your wife is a teacher. My thoughts are move South TX is not known for being overly generous to its teachers but they start at $32K + bennies like health insurance.
The whole point here is that the cost of living is so high because of the excessive labor costs forced on society by Unions in certain core industries. I understand that the folks working in those industries deserve a decent wage and I dont argue with that. I do take issue with the forced non productive labor costs. If you want an example I will give you one: My brother-in-law, an engineer, was hired by a company to do some consulting. Part of the job required him to climb up on the roof of a building when he attempted to pick up a nearby ladder, so he could access the roof, the company man with him stopped him and said the union contract required that a laborer be called to position the ladder. A call was placed and 30 mins later a laborer appeared the first thing he did was whip out a tape measure and measure the ladder then refused to move it without help because the ladder was 10'6" long and the "contract" required 2 laborers to handle anything over 10' in length. Total cost to move that ladder a few feet was in excess of $300 when you consider the wages of the 2 laborers, the salary of the company escort, and my brother-in-laws fees for the time involved.
I have told several people I know that story and it doesnt surprise anyone that works in an industry that is dominated by unions.