I'm noticing a new trend here that I am not used to. 48-60 forum used to be a place where dissenting opinions could be exchanged. I was proud of it, because it's no small achievement on an internet forum. Lately we do not deserve that reputation IMO. At least we are heading in the wrong direction. If you say something that isn't quite right, or that someone else simply does not believe, you can expect to be chastized. That's really messed up, and I vote we stop it right now.

Physics don't lie. I believe that, although I don't have much formal schooling in the sciences. I believe most anything automotive can be resolved with an equation. All you need are the variables for your equation. And if you are intelligent enough to understand the physics, you ought to be intelligent enough to understand that you may not have all the variables for any situation that pops up on an internet board.

Experience matters too. Some things are just true, though the seasoned car builder may not be able to explain it academically. Does it make him wrong because he can't explain what he knows to work? I don't think so. The downside to experience is everything you have learned is not actually true. Nobody is immune.

Bottomline, I don't want to read about credentials on this forum anymore.

Did you get your education from MIT and now work for NASA? I think that's wonderful, your knowledge is useful here. Now open your mind real wide to the views of others. Because you don't know every damn thing as it applies to an Effie. Let's get back to the business of helping others build a truck, making friends and being respectful of dissenting opinions.

Did you finish highschool and build Nascar engines for Richard Petty for 30 years? Or perhaps you worked in a commercial or military repair facility for decades. I think that's wonderful, your experience is useful here. Now open your mind real wide to the views of others. Because you don't know every damn thing, as it applies to an Effie. Let's get back to the business of helping others build a truck, making friends and being respectful of dissenting opinions.

Something’s went wrong. We used to be able to combine Physics 101 with Mechanikin 101 in peace and harmony. Eventually we got the answer without hurting too many EGOs. Now we just exchange credentials and act rude when we disagree. Take a real hard look at why you post here. I hope it’s to learn, or help others without putting them down. And the next time somebody makes you mad. Save that rude response to a diskette. It will keep until tomorrow if you still feel the need to teach somebody a lesson.

Just my 2 cents. When I get stressed, I'm just as guilty as anyone when it comes to typing without employing the concepts I learned in Kindergarten. Ten percent of the rodder threads now seem to have to end with a loser. Doe it really have to be like this? There are a couple old-time posters on this forum with a real firm grip on how to balance out this academic vs experience thing. I won’t call them out by name, but I am going to try to learn from their posting style.

And this place is still the best forum on the net. Let's fix this or we're heading for trouble. Maybe it’s just my misguided perception, but I don’t really think so.

Respectfully,
Dewayne

 

I agree with U fully there.. Physics says a Bees shouldnt be able to fly.. But facts say who hasnt been stung by a bee.. It been to the point That I just dont want to say anything any more becouse I get BS from others that Im wrong.. Id rather say what I know and than have someone else give there idea's about it.. Who know it might work better, It may not.. But dont try to tear someone else down first without trying it.. Someone wild,wierd,insane, or just plan crazy idea may just be the Perfect one for the problem.. I have worked with some of the oldest Marine techs alive today.. And some of the thing they do and say sound insane.. but I be damed.. there F'ing right 99.999% of the time.. I always write down what the do that works and keep it handy.. never know when one of there insane idea's will come in handy once more.. So never disregard someone idea becouse it dont make sence to U.. Hell.. I had this one old guy who somehow put a hole in there oil pan, fix it at sea, than filled there engine with Veggie oil and drove it for 300 miles home.. Hell Id didnt believe the guy intill I drian the oil and it smelled like frys .. LOL It worked and it even cleaned the slug out of the block..

smile and be happy

 

You made several excellent points, Dewayne.

If someone gets their truck the way they want it to be, without understanding the gritty details of why each part and system works, I'm on their side (and would love to get a ride with them to check out their truck - feel free to invite me ). If they ask questions about how something works, and if I've got authoritative sources that describe how the system works, and if I understand it well enough, I'll try to share it without all the equations (although I have been rightly accused of being too hung up on the details ). Otherwise, I'm watching for the answers from other board members. If I'm really interested and I don't know, I try to find some truly authoritative sources and learn the details of the issue. That way I can learn something new, and share it with other folks here without contributing to, or creating, an urban myth.

Two important points come to mind. First, my momma used to tell me that, just because I have an opinion, I don't have an obligation to express it (I have a tough time with that one ). Second, I watch the Red Green show once in a while, and my favorite bit is the line they use " ... those three little words men find so hard to say - 'I DON'T KNOW.'"

Here is a case in point on the second idea above. We're currently working through some cooling issues regarding heat transfer, thermodynamics, and engine cooling system components on a thread innocently started by Brad (svooom), who I’m sure didn’t expect the intense response he got. Speaking for myself, I DON'T KNOW why some of the not-so-obvious engine cooling system effects have been seen by other folks. I certainly have my own ideas based on training and experience, but there are clearly other opinions as well. In a rare moment of self-restraint, I’m thinking it’s best for me to get some authoritative input from respected sources and post those, rather than mislead somebody with my current opinions.

This certainly isn’t a call for banning folks from relating their experiences and opinions. Long-time board members know I’d be the last person to want that . It does mean we all need to remember that, up until the early 1600’s, everyone KNEW the stars and other planets revolved around the Earth – scientists and engineers included. There isn’t anyone among us that can’t gain a new understanding of how something works.

So as Dewayne said, we got a good thing here on FTE, and a great family atmosphere. Keep an open mind. Everyone’s opinions are just that, opinions. They are usually offered to be helpful. Most importantly, take some time to consider how the words you type will be interpreted by other folks on the forums. And take some time to figure out what the poster is really saying, and what their mind-set might be. It’s really, really different posting text on a forum than it is sitting over a cold drink and being able to hear each other laugh, make funny faces, and change our voice to indicate that the comment is friendly, and not a put-down. I’ve been surprised and embarrassed to find what I thought was a light-hearted comment in some of my posts was seen in a negative way by other members. After some thought, I usually realize I should have taken a little more time to remember that all the other members see is the text, not the smile I had on my face when I typed it.

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I consider everyone here a friend, and talking with my friends makes me happy. I want to keep it that way.

 

Dewayne... you know that I would be among the first to disagree with you if I thought you were wrong. I don't. There has been a disturbance in the ambiance around here and, on the surface, I attributed it to the long dreary winter when most of us are restricted by the weather. There has never been a time when I felt that discretion in my responses or questions was mandatory. (like George's Mom said)

I think that Mad's analogy hits the nail on the head... "Physics says a Bees shouldnt be able to fly.. But facts say who hasnt been stung by a bee.." It puts a smile on my face and makes me feel that I do understand.

The mix of technical and comical repartee on this board makes it what it is. Someone noted that it is often helpful to punctuate with a smilie to soften what appears to be a sharp retort. I think, perhaps, that we might all listen to George's Mom and not show someone our opinion or the other thing we all have. Hmmm... now how do I follow my own advise and still post this? hoisted on his own petard, himmelberg

 

Does this mean its ok for me to post the progress of my ranger frame swap without being told how its a bad idea? or why i shouldnt do it? or how its going to take me back ten steps before I can go forward? I also agree with what was said in the above post. Everything we say contributes in someway or another. Even if we arent exactly right everytime, we bring up other things that may not have been addressed by someone knowing that final answer.

 

Gosh Joe, I hope you are kidding here. It's always alright to post anything you want (within the FTE rules). This is exactly what 'fenders wants to avoid. I try to respond to every frame swap post with words of encouragement and the standard caveats. I hope you don't take them as negative. The usual question is "what is the best/easiest frame swap, blah, blah". The answer is almost always a warning about the obstacles based on second hand information and there is no "best/easiest" solution. The real answer is "I don't know" (thanks, George)... buried beneath the fact that no one here has given any first hand information.

If I can help you compile information, pictures, measurements, anecdotes, I'd be proud to help. So would a bunch of others here. Glad you are on the board with us, himmelberg

 

"Does this mean its ok for me to post the progress of my ranger frame swap without being told how its a bad idea? or why i shouldnt do it?"

Joe,

IMO no, it doesn't mean that exactly. I hope this never becomes a place where I can't tell you I think your Ranger plan is not the easiest path. Now at the same time, you probably don't need to hear it ten times from the same guy. I'm sure it gets old.

But this is also the place to "show us the money" if you got something that is working. Himmelberg has commented more than once on the frame swap threads that a new solution would be very welcome. Documentation of something that works well has this tendency to shut up naysayers.

And this place will never be perfect. I started this thread and you can bet I'll screw up in a week. I'll either get irritated, or more of my attempts at humor will be misinterpretted. I can't drastically change my personality. We got guys here in charge of tactfully guiding the conversation to a more productive end. It isn't hard to see when somebody is getting mad. When that occurs, we can either throw on some gas, and go get the fire extinguisher, or do nothing. A lot of people have to take their turn going after the fire extinguisher. Rather than just clicking off on the thread and thinking "Gee, those idiots are wrecking this place for me, I sure wish somebody else would make them stop it". I can't do it everytime because regrettably, sometimes I am one of the idiots trying to "win" a thread.

 

'fenders,

I've been building hot rods since the 60s and I have a lot of experience on what works and what doesn't. I'm not a rocket scientist and I don't have a PHd. I'm not an expert on anything but I know a little about a lot of things. When the scientists and engineers start in about this and that I usually just butt out or ignore the post completely. I'm have no axe to grind and nothing to prove but if I've been through something and I know the answer I try to help out if I can. Most of the time I can care less about the scientific principles behind whether something works or doesn't work. I'd like to see more meat and potatos and less fluff. This forum should be for the average Joe who just needs a little assistance here and there and not a platform for grandstanding...which there seems to be a lot more of lately.

Vern

 

What "

What "GreatNorthWoods said" me too! except I don't have his experience building rods

 

being fairly new here i just come for peoples thoughs, ideas and personal opinions.... but when it comes down to it i build it to what i think is right, or looks right... i just ask questions to be pointed in a direction... some times thats from experiance, other its from physics. personal i like to go from experiance, because its been done before and someone here on these forums has done it, just my 2cents

 

Know what Joe? You're a smart guy and have been around FTE plenty long enough to be one of the firemen. If 'fenders hits you over the head one too many times about your frame choice, the correct response is something like

Then invite him to relate that story to you. If I get on your case too much, you could try something like

I guarantee that will get a chuckle from me, and act as a smack up side 'o the head at the same time.

Neither of those responses will guarantee we won't be boneheads and forget that we told you several times we had reservations about your plan. I, for one, get hit with the stupid stick just as often as everybody else. Those kind of responses will remind us in a candid and humorous way that it's your truck, and we don't have a corner on the good idea, creativity, skill, or hard work markets.

I certainly wouldn't take the comment about engine bearing placement as anything but a playful jab. Just don't do it to somebody the same day they did something stupid. You know what they say - timing is everything. I learned that the hard way from my wife.

I think the bottom line is, not many of us want to turn this forum into a meaningless "pat everybody on the back and never provide any guidance 'cuz it might hurt someone's self-esteem" world. I also suspect the majority don't want to end up totally ignoring the feelings of the others on the board and have every thread turn into a "I've been doing this for 30 years and you're totally clueless dumba$$" war. Someplace in between is that family reunion atmosphere where you get some good advice from grandpa, and also get teased by your cousin because you fell asleep with your face in your mashed potatoes when you were six. We're just hoping to keep uncle Bart from getting drunk and punching aunt Edna in the nose.

 

One more post and then I’ll shut up for awhile. My thread title was probably not quite accurate. If I squelch the sharing of physics or engineering principles, then I have done this forum a great disservice. I very much enjoy learning how things really work, even though I may give George a bunch of grief for giving us too much information sometimes. My truck is better because I have learned from George, AX and the other resident “rocket scientists” that frequent this place.

My only point is that we need to avoid so much confrontation. Lately I open every long thread wondering who is engaged in an internet fight to the finish. I can only imagine how a 17 year old young man on his first project might feel. He’s got to be worried he’s gonna say something that isn’t quite correct and get slammed. Until lately, this forum has never been about winning an argument. There’s always room for the “meat and potatoes” as Vern puts it, as well as the academic explanation for why things are what they are.

And Joe, point taken. The 14th time I heard a Volare IFS is a stupid idea I'd probably start getting irritated too. Peter is working on a more appropriate standard forum response for the weekly noobie frame swap question. And when you get yours documented, I assure you we will most enthusiastically add it to the IFS sticky. Only thing we need are some details. It has to roll down the road, and an objective assessment documented before it's added. Not necessarily the best course, but a viable one. If it's time consuming, but cheap and effective, that's the way it will be presented. Hopefully that is fair enough.

 

Fenders -

I am so glad you started this thread. Like you, I have been worried lately. Lots of "science". Not many laughs. Lots of bickering about esoteric physics, credentials and stuff that, while interesting, doesn't necessarily answer the original question.

Fenders. Himmelberg, Vern, George, (John N., El Cabron),...you guys are among my favorite posters. I always check out a thread that you have answered or started and look forward to input from you on my questions because I know I'm going to get good information, maybe a chuckle and go away feeling good about it rather than feeling stupid for having the question or a different opinion.

But I think my favorite post was when Fenders told someone to go to www.measureityourowndamnself.com. And then others answered that they got a lot from that site or that they couldn't reach it. Good stuff. I really did laugh out loud on that one.

I think we all have to have interest, empathy, humor and, sometimes, a thick skin (the harder one for me). Experience and enthusiasm is what this forum is all about for me.

Thanks, guys. My faith is redeemed.

(P.S.: I would add the smiley faces, but I DON'T KNOW how).

 

I guess I can put my 2 cents in here also. I understand what Fatfenders and everyone is talking about. I don't recall the post but I do remember reading about formulas, equations, etc. To be honest, I read no further because one, I didn't have clue what everyone was talking about, and two, it appeared to be a spitting contest (not quite the word I was looking for). I'm not one the old timers here, but I feel I am a part of the family here. I don't work in the automotive field but like most of us I have had several projects with cars, etc., I'm one of those night time, after working hours, weekend warriors in my garage. I understand this post and feel as most of you do. I love reading posts by guys in here like Fatfenders, Earl, and many others I can't mention who explain things to me in layman terms. Since I'm doing all the work myself on my truck, I definitely rely on advice from the people in here who have been there and have gone through what I'm going through now. I can confess that my truck would of never been completed as much as it has if this website wasn't here. I'll admit, I'm tapping you guys for advice, not theories of relativity, or who knows more about what. I've also given advice in here from projects I've complete or errors I've made so others don't have to go through what I did and vice versa. I haven't been a member long enough to get my stripes yet, but I'm working on it, LOL. I think its appropriate to thank everyone who has given me sound advice and helped me with my truck project. Let's go back to the basics...

 

Hey Randy,

Take a look at the image below of the "Reply to Thread" screen. Do you have the smiley's on the right of the screen after you click on the "Post Reply" button? If you do, just put the cursor in your message where you want the smiley, and then click on the image of the smiley you want to add. The editor will insert the combination of letters/symbols needed to produce the smiley. Leave at least one space before and after the smiley codes so they don't get interpreted as part of what you are typing in your message. That's all there is to it!