Hello Gents,

I need help!!!! Before getting a reply from the "boys" that the information is already on FTE, let me disarm you by saying the I have spent the last 3 days reading and digesting as much information as I could....... and let me tell you there is a LOT of information on the subject.

Starting with the general concensus. It seems fair to assume at this point (from what I have read) that the microtuners out-score the plug-ins... for cost and tunability reason.

Where things get a little more coomplicated for me is the lack of a clear winner in the ever present battle of the microtuner. Both Superchip and Diablo seem to carry heavy support and both have extremely lengthy thread to show their support. The only problem I see with both threads is they seem to segregate the info concerning each tuner. If you have a comment about Superchip you post-it in the Superchip thread, and if you have one about the Predator then you are ever so gently reminded to go to the monster size Predator thread. I would like to start this thread with a few questions of my own questions and would like to invite both sides to weight in.

Please be civil about the interaction and respecfull of each others position. Let's show Ken that we can actually intereact in the same forum and exchange info like gown-ups.

Claude

 

Did I miss your questions ?

Suffice it to say that I chose the Diablo Predator because of four main reasons among many others:

1) It was the first flash programmer for the 6.0 in Jan of this year
2) It can be updated online and not require unloading and being without it for weeks to update...
3) There are verified and posted dyno curves for the predator - As in my gallery...
4) When the Superchip was announced I was very interested in the 150 HP claims and asked for months to see dyno curves and have only seen charts... no curves...

Many LIKE the Superchip... but I couldn't take the rhetoric as fact and still like what the predator does for my truck....

No matter WHICH one you chose, get one soon...
and from Motorhaven... My Bro-in-law just ordered one from them for next day delivery !!! One ride in my truck and he had to have one !!!
it will make a LOT of difference for you and your truck !!!!

 

Alright them, with the purpose of the thread and the disclaimer explained, let me start the dance.

From my reading, it seems that:

1) Superchip has the best programmer around... Vic_Ferrari. Obviously I cannot speak first hand about his programming skills, but his dilligence in informing the thread and problem solving issues are unmatched, so far.

SC, as a product, does carry heavy first hand accounts of the post-tuning benefits and some even provide dyno test to boot. The negatives I have read, however, include the SC inability to update over the net and somewhat deficient customer rapport. The issues with the lack of readily available ways to update without having to box up your unit is nonetheless made-up by the truck to truck customization of the flashes. This is quite evident in the thread. Personnaly I cannot wait for the time when "Vic" will be able to receive the flash from us via internet, with the problem codes or issues to resolve, be able to work on it and email back the new and improved flash.

2) Predator also carry a tremendous amount of supporters. As with the SC gains and benefits are also matched with dyno testing and first hand accounts from their customers. From what I have read it seems that Diablo does provide with upgrades via internet, but this is the extent of my knowledge on their product upgrades. I have read more than once about harsher shifts, which is also present with SC, however less is presented on the subject as to how the issues are handled.

My question is which one is the one for me..... I could call Motorheaven and I am sure that one of their customer service person could answer that for me but would like your inputs.....

My baby is a 2004 F-250 PSD 4x4 Harley Edition (stock), which may haul my other baby, a restomod 68 mustang fastback, once in while to local car shows.

Please include any rationals into why you feel one microtuner may better service me or why the other may not. (LET"S KEEP IT FRIENDLY!!!)

Any input is welcomed and well appreciated.

Claude

 

Hey jdadmasjr,

You just beeat me to the punch by a few seconds. I did not want my intro to be too lengthy. Thanks

Au plaisir de vous lire

Claude

 

A few folks have had the good fortune to try both and make their own direct comparison based on their personal preferences.

That's about the best way to do it, because both from everything that I've read, both are good products and I think that often it just comes down to personal preferences for shift and power delivery.

I myself am very happy with the SCMT. I've documented my experiences with it at the drag strip and reported on EGT and boost as well as fuel mileage improvements over time. The only thing that is lacking is a dyno run.

Now that I'm considering buying a dyno for fun and profit, maybe that will change (I'm not considering that seriously yet though so don't get you're hopes up . . .)

 

And to jd's comments regarding the chart versus dyno curves for the SCMT on the SC web site.

What I've learned after listening to Vic talk and doing my own research into the various engine and chassis dyno testing methods, is that the best way to really measure power for the PSD - or anything else for that matter - is to use a brake dyno versus an intertial dyno.

It is very easy to produce a "curve" when using an intertial dyno because what they measure is the ability of a vehicle to accelerate a drum. The dv/dt of the drum is recorded along with the engine's RPM and processed with various correction factors and eventually turned into the "curves". In a nut shell, because it is a rate of change type of measurement the data is recorded across the span of the RPM range and the curves are easy to produce.

With the brake dyno, data is taken at discrete sample points. For example, SAE J1349 specifies that manufactuers sample data in a minimum of 500 RPM increments across the band and 100 RPM increments around the torque and HP peaks. So unless the sample size is small, you won't get what looks like a curve but rather a set of points from which you can construct a curve.

That is what SC has done. The advantage is that the numbers produce this way are more accurate and repeatable from dyno to dyno. The engine can also be loaded to simulate more real world conditions. The disadvantage is time. It takes a lot more work and effort to run the dyno for each of those sample points.

Plugging in those discrete chart values from the SC web site into Excel and doing a plot may not accurately reflect the performance of the tuner in between the sample points, but it is pretty darn close and to discount it entirely is simply retoric.

 

*** NEWS FLASH ***

I went to the SC web site to take another look at the chart data and maybe plot it myself for the heck of it, and low and behold what do I see - curves!

Check them out at: http://www.superchips.com/html/produ...sel_trucks.htm

 

dv/dt and discrete values!!!

Advice from an engineer = priceless

 

Very cool.....

 

Daryl....

understand the differences in the WAY it was done....

I guess my concern...
is ANYTIME someone does something "differently" than the rest of the industry...
I don't care how fancy or how well explained....

Why did they do it out of norm is the first question I raise....

We all know that statistics (and curves) can be adjusted/played with....
but we were (sorry I was) just looking for the straight answer to my straight questions....
Like SOME politicians, if you talk to much iwhen a staright yes or no would have answered it... you are diggin yourself a HOLE !!!! that's all...

just sorta used to the "sales" and marketing types "presenting" things in the "most flattering light"

 

Well, SC has posted curves now too, so hopefully we can put that part of the discussion to rest and start comparing the shape of the curves between the two.

Because of the difference in dynos, especially between intertial dynos, to really do a fair comparison of the two tuners, the two should be compared on the same dyno using the same truck - on the same day preferably.

If I can't get an '05 V10 owner to step up to the plate, maybe I can go out and buy a Predator and do a comparison test of the two towing the trailer and driving around in general. To bad that they closed Carlsbad raceway, have to travel further now to do a head to head drag strip comparison.

Never know, might even be able to get it published in one of the truck/trailer mags and pay for the Predator that way

 

That's a thought !
good luck with it...
sorta distracted trying to get this house finished

 

Now that winter will soon be here, I'll be making regular trips to the desert to do some dirt bike riding. The mountains on I-8 just South of here make a really good proving ground. Might as well do something productive with the drive . . .

 

I thought of buying a Predator (already have the SCMT) and the G-Tech Performance meter to compare the two tuners. If accurated weighed, it should give good HP and torque numbers and also great time vs. distance numbers (no reaction time). If both tuners were ran on the same truck, this should be a fair, unbiased comparision. Especially if tests were run back to back on the same roadway and under the same weather conditions.

I was only thinking of going this route because I have found no dynos to compare the tuners on. It snowed the other day, so I don't think I'll be able to do this comparision until springtime. The numbers would be off due to loss of traction on the snow and ice.

The G-Tech would be great afterwards to monitor performance increases from various tweaks (ie. EGR disconnect), but what would I do with the "losing" tuner? Hopefully somebody else can do a fair comparision before springtime.

 

And the plot thickens..... Actually to tell everyone the thruth this thread sounds a lot like the other threads. The politician's debate attitude is not exactly the main purpose of why I started the thread. I was interested in positive FEEDBACK and "School of Hard Knocks" debate based on personal experience, not the marketing regurgitation that we can find each tuners website.

Daryl I think has the best idea on how to really INFORM the thread..... have personal feedback from the people that have truely experienced both tuners in their trucks. I think we could almost make a stats run on the feedback received, i.e. of all the respondants for 2003 and 2004 vehicles that have tried both, X% say they like "Y" for the following reasons.

JD has a point that the information can be manipulated to prove a point (I should know considering I just finished that exact process in my doctorate). It is more than obvious to anyone that SC or Diablo will not post their worst run!!! So lets keep the marketing banter to a minimal and SHARE personal experiences, preferences etc...

Thanks and to all a good day

Claude