Getting a shudder from standing start in 2nd gear. '66 F250, 352, New Process 4 speed. The condition was much improved by new clutch, pressure plate, throw-out bearing, pilot bearing, and rear main seal, but there's still some shudder there, intermittently. Before the work, it was much worse, especially in reverse. Now, reverse seems ok, but there's still a problem in 2nd, only not nearly as bad as before. The clutch plate was contaminated by a leaking rear main, and the flywheel had some hot spots, and has been resurfaced. The shudder does not occur in a standing start in 1st gear.

Ideas?

 

t/o bearin not slidin rite on input check return spring.or the clutch suface not flat or flywheel resurface job not rite. id run it for a while to see if it'll "whare in" if its the clutch disc it'll do that at least

 

I would, just to play it safe, (1) check to make sure the leaking seal was fully repaired and has not begun leaking again, (2) make sure the bellhousing bolts are tight and even, and (3) make sure the transmission is fully bolted to the bellhousing, and, finally, (4) make sure no motor or transmission mount is worn or loose.

Granted, that may strike you as rather ridiculous; however, I have seen each of these problems occur and, in happening, made the truck shudder. Plus, of course, wizzard351's post is accurate as well.

I am not trying to bad-mouth whoever did the repair work; rather, of course, the transmission is pretty heavy and bolting it correctly is pretty hard--at least for a little guy such as myself...LOL. Too, some of the bellhousing bolts may not have been fully torqued. It can happen despite one's best efforts.

But, from your description, it is happening mostly in 2nd gear as opposed to 1st and R, which are LOWER gears; that really does strike me as being indicative of a loose motor or transmission mount.

At the least, it couldn't hurt to check these items out; at the best, it may solve your problem!

Good luck and I do hope what I posted will be of some helpfulness to you!

 

I have a 352 3 speed, and get tremendous shudder in reverse. It's just impossible to let the clutch out slowly going backwards...an "all or nothing" approach is the only thing that works. All forward gears are perfectly fine. I'm frankly puzzled. I figured a new clutch would solve it, but maybe not?

 

ddavidv etal. . .

I'm gonna "throw a dog in this fight" with this from experience information. As y'all may or may not know dirve line angles are critical to smoothe and successful drive line operations. Many years ago I had the opportunity to attend a short course seminar on "Drive Line Tech", put on by Arrow Industries. Arrow is a national Re-Manufacrurer & an Independent Jobber I've used for years handles Arrow Clutches & stuff.

Believe it or not after all the actual clutch parts & tecnnology involved, there are several other contributing factors, and the biggest and most overlooked is Suspension and suspension bushings. Big End Bushings, in front, or "big end" eye of the rear springs
is most often the root cause of clutch chatter when worn. The springs sort of "float" in a state of uneven tension when the pivoting centers get out of round or out of size.
This cauase pinion angle to change in an up & down oscilation which causes loading of friction point to vary. Clutch sort of goes in and out of it's friction point as a result.

In this case whats happening is clutch rapidly begins to engage then breaks slipping ever so slightly until there is enough "loading" in drive line & suspension to tighten everything up by force. A Good set of bushings keep things tight until they wear out & they will wear out. Then things, like front pivot bolt in eye of spring gets loose and uncentered in the spring eye, or frame bracket. It doesnot matter whether it's going forward or reverse, what's dysaffected is clutch engagement due to excess play in the
suspension mounting system. Wait, there's another cause too! It's saggy, crushed, worn or broken engine/ tranny mounting rubber insulators. These have same affect because as front of drive shaft lifts & falls driveline angle is also still dysaffected.

Ideally there should be about 2 degrees + angle at one end of the drive shaft and 2 degrees - at the other end. If you get say +3* At one end & -1* at other end, pinion angle will be out of alignment. Oscillation that misalignment causes results in annoying clutch chatter this thread is about. . .

I'll throw this in also. If you have worn bushings/ mounts you're giving up efficiency & performance that is simply creates a waste of fuel $$$$ too. Plus in some radical cases excess wear can be caused by driveline misalignment too. Y'all may want to check what I'm saying here out for yourselves. You may be suprised.

FBp

Like Paul Harvey says,"And now y'all know the rest of the story".

 

I swear there's always something to learn here. I'm changing out my bushings this weekend! I knew they contributed to my driveline misalignment and slight highway vibration but I wouldn't have associated them with clutch chatter. It makes perfect sense once plainly explained by the explainer.

 

a lot of new fords did this in their day.its that 3 finger pressure plate.ford got rid of it around 75.after that they used the diahfram type.however it wouldnt fit the old flywheels.you can buy them now made to fit the old bolt pattern.see one at www.ford-y-block.com

 

FordBoyPete has shed much light on the subject of bushing wear and my years of working on these old Fords inclines me to agree with everything he writes. But there is one more element in the scheme of the two piece driveline that has not been broached and that is the carrier bearing bushing. With age, these always get weak. Since this is the closest floating point to the tranny it makes sense to start here. This solution has solved the chatter problem for me on at least two occasions. Check it out. Lazy

 

I had called a former Ford driveline engineer I met back in 1982 to ask him about it. He pointed out bushing wear AND carrier bearing wear as two other possibilites--he also pointed out that very few ever consider checking for excessive bushing wear. Obviously, though, FordBoyPete has considered it carefully! Thanks for the post!

 

Loan Ranger,
By Carrier bearing You're referring to "Mid Ship" carrier bearing in 2 pc system, that lazy Hog Farmer mentioned, right?

Also "LR", I think it's happening to him in 2nd because he doesn't start in Grannie Gear too often with the 4 gear box. That's an assumption of course, but also "M.A." [mechanical advantage] of gears like lo in a Grannie Box, is such that by the time friction point is reached in Lo it's similar (in terms of "M.A.") to ddavidv "dumping" his clutch in "R", which = instant, full, torque applied in a hurry. Lurch in suspension & vehicle that results slams the play out of sloppy components, chatter/ shudder can't occur.

Thanx for the Flowers LR, but altho I have considered, even studied this, in fact, I was actually introduced to & taught about it it in that short course by the folks of Arrow Industries. I didn't believe it made much difference when I 1st heard it, but I had an instructor who took time to convince me. On the back side of that, learning & applying it & other drive line, suspension & performance theory it has given me some great "Launches" at 1/4 Mile Tracks! I'm just sharing what I learned from them.
WARNING, Warning, warning, tho'! If your being popular among "Blow Tie" affecinadoes means more than winning in the traps then ignore my next statement completely, but if you're looking for success, the key is below!

Bottom Line? Details, all those endless myriad, ongoing never ending details & paying due attention to 'em. but what a difference they all can & do make when ya do. :~)

Shudder/ chatter is not "nature of the beast" as some "wrenches" still insist. In fact the topic was brought up by a shop owner who R&R'd a F100 clutch & was dealing with this very problem, which was why customer brought it in to have a clutch replaced. He did it all, resurfaced flywheel, replaced input shaft housing [one the throw out brg collar rides on] as well as a "Throw Away" bearing. He replaced clutch linkage, bellcrank bushings too. . . all to no avail, it still shuddered & chattered.

As we who've dealt with this know, the more gentle you try to drive away the worse the condition seems to come on. It's impossible to "ride" the clutch to hold on a upgrade stop sign or on a hill. It's beyond aggravation sometimes.

2nd & 3rd, hidden, advantage, of R&R'ing suspension bushings is returning a vehicles handling, braking & ride qualities to what they were, or even better than they were when truck was new. I hadn't realized how "loose and sloppy" & truly bad, my slick became as I had driven it over the 20+ years because it was a very slow, gradual, degenerative process over a long period of time. When I renewed my bushings on "GP" I was very pleasantly suprised at what the results I discovered. What a difference!

I hope this Helps anybody struggling with clutch shudder/ chatter issues, or any results of sloppy bushings in suspension, steering & drivelines. I probably don't need to add this, but I will. The fluid nature of hydraulics in an A/T or Automatic drivetrain masks the worn bushing effect, clutches amplify.

So just because you may have an Automatic and do not experience shudder-chatter, doesn't mean your bushings aren't also worn out. As a generality, bushings have a life of about 10 years, or 100K [100,000] miles, MOL.

Also bushings today, even OEM style are made of advanced compounds than even existed in early to mid 60s. We have polyurethane and polygraphite for bushing materials now too. However there are some issues particular to "poly" based bushings which the OEM style do not have.

CIAO Guys!

FBp

 

Yes, I did mean the driveshaft center support bearing. Several around here refer to them as carrier bearings and I used the term instead of being more precise. Nope, it isn't the carrier bearing in the pinion!! My bad!

Still, I really did enjoy your posts. I felt they were thoughtful, helpful, and shed some light on two areas often overlooked.

Of course, that is similar to a loose motor or transmission mount. They can make a clutch shudder and many don't consider that. However, as I see it at least, that is a big benefit of a forum such as this. Everybody can contribute and prove helpful or provide a new idea or line of thought.

 

I have athe same problem and notice that when I load up the bed the shudder partically disappeared. Kind of supports FordBoypete's theory

 

FordBoypete, your on the right track as to drive line angles. The pinion angle will be correct when the truck is loaded, when you run around empty which is 90% (my guess) of the time the angle difference between joints is at it's greatest. Old motor mounts get soft with age and oil soak, change them. Check the motor mount perch bolts on both sides as they may be loose. I've removed perches that showed alot of wear from years of movement. The clutch arm pivot bushings, the tube shaft between the motor and frame may be shot. Loose or worn pilot bushing in the crank. Cheapo reman pressure plates will chatter. Check bell housing bore for trans to see if it's concentric with the crank pilot bushing. Loose (worn) clutch spline, drive dogs inside the trans as well as U-joints. Check the clearance between the pressure plate surface and the flywheel surface when the clutch is depressed, turn the motor by hand and check a full 360 degrees. Good luck, Carl....o&o>......

 

Years ago I bought a 74 2wd short step side ford truck this truck had 44s
ground hogs on the back of it , well when I bought it I thought it needed a clutch this thing would jump and hop like crazy well believe it or not I sold the big mud tires and put on small normal size tires it was like I had put a new clutch in it .This may be worth a try!


All the ideas above are right on track!

 

I installed a rebuilt 302 and had bad clutch chatter. I found the dowel pins in the block caused the bellhousing to not be concentric with the crank. I bought some offset dowel pins and dialed it in to zero. Now I always check new block and bellhousing combinations before I install them.