Which air filter ????
Elder User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 639
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From: not mass
tis helps we know clean paper flows better right?
this is what i was thinking using a reusable filter or other media to catch the "big" stuff and keep the paper cleaner and catching the small stuff
or using a wrapper..foam accel or k&n wrapper but to do this seems backwards
think i could just start working on tooling for my air box think i could use 18x18 filter(ya probally paper thought they did a better job on the K&N) then i need a water grid or what not to keep it dry then being so low i would need a stack for playing in the deep stuff(mud does clog a air filter ?? lol) or could attach it b'een the hood and carb area
eh i just can't think at the moment...i will lay something out 2mmorrow while i should be working
this is what i was thinking using a reusable filter or other media to catch the "big" stuff and keep the paper cleaner and catching the small stuff
or using a wrapper..foam accel or k&n wrapper but to do this seems backwards
think i could just start working on tooling for my air box think i could use 18x18 filter(ya probally paper thought they did a better job on the K&N) then i need a water grid or what not to keep it dry then being so low i would need a stack for playing in the deep stuff(mud does clog a air filter ?? lol) or could attach it b'een the hood and carb area
eh i just can't think at the moment...i will lay something out 2mmorrow while i should be working
Post Fiend
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,324
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From: Denton,TX
The problem is that when you start adding layers of filtration you also start adding restriction. Stick with a good paper filter, like the Donaldson I use. 99.9% filtration is about as good as you can get. Save your money and instead of buying a K&N fabricate your own intake with an oversized paper filter.
BTW, Donaldson and Baldwin have a patented filter media that repels water.
BTW, Donaldson and Baldwin have a patented filter media that repels water.
Senior User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 228
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From: Central Texas
Howdy John
Why mess with the already engineered induction system? Do you for one minute think that if there were horses or torque or gas milage in there for YOU to stumble on with the exhaust pipe from an inboard boat... That the engineers would not have found it in their years of searching for every small advantage that there is under that hood?
Read the link i posted above and see what the guy found in his testing. If you want to mess with something put some seat covers on there.
Big Jim
Why mess with the already engineered induction system? Do you for one minute think that if there were horses or torque or gas milage in there for YOU to stumble on with the exhaust pipe from an inboard boat... That the engineers would not have found it in their years of searching for every small advantage that there is under that hood?
Read the link i posted above and see what the guy found in his testing. If you want to mess with something put some seat covers on there.
Big Jim
Post Fiend
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,324
Likes: 1
From: Denton,TX
Originally Posted by Big Jim M
Howdy John
Why mess with the already engineered induction system? Do you for one minute think that if there were horses or torque or gas milage in there for YOU to stumble on with the exhaust pipe from an inboard boat... That the engineers would not have found it in their years of searching for every small advantage that there is under that hood?
Read the link i posted above and see what the guy found in his testing. If you want to mess with something put some seat covers on there.
Big Jim
Why mess with the already engineered induction system? Do you for one minute think that if there were horses or torque or gas milage in there for YOU to stumble on with the exhaust pipe from an inboard boat... That the engineers would not have found it in their years of searching for every small advantage that there is under that hood?
Read the link i posted above and see what the guy found in his testing. If you want to mess with something put some seat covers on there.
Big Jim
For the record, I get fuel mileage, not gas mileage.
Last edited by johnsdiesel; Aug 29, 2004 at 05:17 PM.
Senior User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 228
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From: Central Texas
Howdy John I guess we are rideing the same horse after all. I have several Chevy H/D 6litre engines. Chevy offers a HD air cleaner box for them too. Their reason is that the larger ones are for extreem dirty off street use.Big Jim
Post Fiend
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,324
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From: Denton,TX
I'm not an advocate of K&N filters at all because, even according to their own posted numbers, they don't filter as well as paper. If you feel that your engine demands more air, a larger paper element is the only way to accomplish this while maintaining filtration. That's what the system I used does. I've known several people that have had problems with their factory airbox sealing properly and I also know of several people who have ruined their turbos from using K&N filters. Cummins also warned of other damage, such as scoring of internal parts, from these type of filters.
For the record, the main OEM application for the filter used on the Tymar intake I use is for a 5.9 Cummins motorhome chassis. Seems perfect for what I own.
For the record, the main OEM application for the filter used on the Tymar intake I use is for a 5.9 Cummins motorhome chassis. Seems perfect for what I own.
Postmaster
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 3
From: Massachusetts
I have and K&N filter on my V10. I have not had any problems at all. I kept the old filter housing just in case. One thing about the performance aspect of all cotton?gauze filters......They only help at WIDE open throttle. The paper filters flow just fine for all other driving applications and are safe for engines. K&N claim to be safe for engines.....maybe they are maybe they let too much in. With the K&N you are always thinking. Like I said I have a K&N installed on my Super Duty V10. It came with the banks power pack. So I always walk the fence about running it or not.
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Senior User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 188
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From: Tehachapi, CA
I really appreciate this discussion about air filters because I've had all the same questions. I'm getting good direction from you all. One thing I found out in my searching around was that the NAPA and CARQUEST brands are made by WIX. Interesting.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 1
From: Everett, Wa
Originally Posted by Big Jim M
Howdy John
Why mess with the already engineered induction system? Do you for one minute think that if there were horses or torque or gas milage in there for YOU to stumble on with the exhaust pipe from an inboard boat... That the engineers would not have found it in their years of searching for every small advantage that there is under that hood?
Read the link i posted above and see what the guy found in his testing. If you want to mess with something put some seat covers on there.
Big Jim
Why mess with the already engineered induction system? Do you for one minute think that if there were horses or torque or gas milage in there for YOU to stumble on with the exhaust pipe from an inboard boat... That the engineers would not have found it in their years of searching for every small advantage that there is under that hood?
Read the link i posted above and see what the guy found in his testing. If you want to mess with something put some seat covers on there.
Big Jim
And no the Detroit engineers have not taken advantage of every little small improvement, not even close. They have time and cost constraints to put out an ok performing, quite, low cost vehicle together. This is why there is an aftermarket.
Last edited by tmyers; Aug 30, 2004 at 01:46 AM.
Senior User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 228
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From: Central Texas
Originally Posted by tmyers
I have read that link a thousnd times and for the most part I don't really buy it. Not that I have done the in depth testing this guy did but by 30 years of experience. I do agree that the K&N lets in more dirt, I just disagree that the filtration test prove anything. Without an analysis of the particles it really means nothing. This is the same method a vacuum salesmen will use. I do agree with John though that if you have the room you can accomplish the same thing with a larger paper filter, you just have to replace it more often.
And no the Detroit engineers have not taken advantage of every little small improvement, not even close. They have time and cost constraints to put out an ok performing, quite, low cost vehicle together. This is why there is an aftermarket.
And no the Detroit engineers have not taken advantage of every little small improvement, not even close. They have time and cost constraints to put out an ok performing, quite, low cost vehicle together. This is why there is an aftermarket.
And the test you say you have read a thousand times says that the paper filters flow as good as the K&N's do... excepting maybe above 5,000rpm.
Hey the K&N folks are the vaccum salesman in this discussion. Not the guy that did his own test. I'l stand by my opinion that for what we do with these trucks we cannot improve on the air intake system.
Now if any of us are heading out to the BAHA then not only the air intake system but a whole lot more needs to be done.
Big Jim
Post Fiend
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,324
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From: Denton,TX
Originally Posted by wmcutter
I really appreciate this discussion about air filters because I've had all the same questions. I'm getting good direction from you all. One thing I found out in my searching around was that the NAPA and CARQUEST brands are made by WIX. Interesting.
tmyers, actually I only have to change my paper filter about every 30K miles. It's so large that I don't need to change it as often as my stock filter. I probably doubled the surface area of the intake.
Big Jim M, I stand by what I said regarding diesels. There is much to be improved upon with the air intake, especially if you run a chip or tuner. If you don't upgrade the air intake EGT rise to unsafe levels quickly.
Last edited by johnsdiesel; Aug 30, 2004 at 05:28 AM.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
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From: Everett, Wa
Originally Posted by Big Jim M
Well tmeyers if you don't buy this what is it you do buy? K&N's ads? They say themselvs that the particles that pass thru their filters are larger and there is more of them than what goes thru paper filters.
And the test you say you have read a thousand times says that the paper filters flow as good as the K&N's do... excepting maybe above 5,000rpm.
Hey the K&N folks are the vaccum salesman in this discussion. Not the guy that did his own test. I'l stand by my opinion that for what we do with these trucks we cannot improve on the air intake system.
Now if any of us are heading out to the BAHA then not only the air intake system but a whole lot more needs to be done.
Big Jim
And the test you say you have read a thousand times says that the paper filters flow as good as the K&N's do... excepting maybe above 5,000rpm.
Hey the K&N folks are the vaccum salesman in this discussion. Not the guy that did his own test. I'l stand by my opinion that for what we do with these trucks we cannot improve on the air intake system.
Now if any of us are heading out to the BAHA then not only the air intake system but a whole lot more needs to be done.
Big Jim
You can stand my your statement all you want and be wrong most of the time. If what you said was true the aftermarket would not exist. You do allude to one thing that is correct though. You have to treat upgrades to the engine as a system. In the case of my Ranger upgraded the intake without also doing the exhaust didn't make since. The exhust was the weak link. But once it was upgraded now the intake becomes the weak link. John had just the opposite problem.
If all you want is to drive what Detroit gave you fine, nothing wrong with that. Me I'm going to push it, sometimes a little, my Ranger and sometime alot, my 77. When I push it a little not only do I improve performance but I also get better fuel mileage. And guess what I don't hurt reliabilty at all. Thats what 31 vehicles and 30 years have taught me.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 1
From: Everett, Wa
Originally Posted by johnsdiesel
tmyers, actually I only have to change my paper filter about every 30K miles. It's so large that I don't need to change it as often as my stock filter. I probably doubled the surface area of the intake.
New User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 18
Likes: 1
Here is my two cents worth. When I run the numbers and it takes about 20 years to get the payoff for buying diesel, especially when Ford wants $6+K for the privilage. If you don't need the power I believe diesel is not economic.
Invest the $6K in a good fund at 6-15% or the S&P at 11% average and you have $600+ to spend on fuel each year after you have reached the limit of your diesel budget.
I believe a lot of diesel trucks are bought for ego. I see big diesel dual weheel F250s and F350s that don't have a scratch on them, no 5th wheel or receiver hitch... what is the purpose?
Invest the $6K in a good fund at 6-15% or the S&P at 11% average and you have $600+ to spend on fuel each year after you have reached the limit of your diesel budget.
I believe a lot of diesel trucks are bought for ego. I see big diesel dual weheel F250s and F350s that don't have a scratch on them, no 5th wheel or receiver hitch... what is the purpose?
Originally Posted by johnsdiesel
In the case of a diesel engine, more air is better. While I personally feel that the advantages for a gas engine are minimal, those for a diesel are not. It helps keep the EGT down so that you can run more fuel in the engine. Also, my turbo spools up faster than it used to. The main reason to mess with the system, there was a recall on my factory airbox, and Ford is not known for making airboxes that seal properly. They actually sell an "aftermarket" upgrade to their own intake for the 7.3 PSD for this reason. So yes, I have experienced better performance and I feel comfortable knowing that my air intake actually filters better than what was on there before.
For the record, I get fuel mileage, not gas mileage.
For the record, I get fuel mileage, not gas mileage.