a few days ago my 92 f150 started missing and jerking really bad, so today i replaced spark plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor. and on saturday im taking it in to have the egr valve fixed. i have never had such a hard time changing such simple things on a vehicle before. theres so much wires and smog BS in there you have no room when you need to use 2 hands, or even 2 fingers. my truck doesnt get any better gas mileage than most carbureted vehicles. i hope there is a such thing as hell so that way whoever designed these vehicles can burn in it along with the hippies that helped with it. i cant wait til i pay this truck off so i can sell it and buy a pre-90s carbureted chevy or ford. luckily the new spark plugs solved the missing problem.


just needed to vent....

 

How long since you tried to start a carb'd car in Illinois in the dead of winter?


I agree they are a pia, esp if you can't read codes from them. (which I know little about but will be finding out about as I have 1 feedback carb and 2 efi all off warranty.....)

But the tradeoff from the old days makes up for it, in my currently not having the troubles you are having opinion.

It seems like there is a way to read codes off my '85 E150--what about yours?

 

my last vehicle had a carb and it was a year and a half ago when i sold it.

you read the codes off it by buying a code reader or going to a shop and hooking it up to a diagnotic scanner.

i dont need a vehicle to tell me whats wrong with it, i can tell that myself.

 

if you can't undestand it don't own it. i put ford injection (89 ho 5.0) on my 1970 bronco reason=runs way off camber, carb flooded over and ticked me off badly. just my .02 no offense meant.

Edited by FTE ~ if you see the language filter tripped, please go back and edit your post to correct it

 

A well tuned carbed engine has the possiblity of having better mileage than a poor running EFI system, but toe to toe, no way.

EFI is way more efficient and your 92 is probably the best EFI system you could ever find in a ford. The EFI system in the newer trucks is a lot more complicated.

That 92 is called EEC-IV, the new ones are EEC-V. The EEC-IV has 60 pins on the computer, the EEC-V has 120.

Believe it or not, that EFI system you have is simplistic (compaired to the newer EFI's)if you spend a little time learning about it. The vehicles made in the last 4-5 years or so are so complicated you really can't easily work on them by yourself. Be happy you have a place like FTE to help you learn. Head down to the 87-96 forum or the engine forums if you havn't already.

I have no problems working on my 95, but I agree working on a carbed engine is easier. My buddy's 03 Nissan Maxima, you can barely find the spark plugs, let alone change them without removing about 10 other things.

 

You forget that back in the bad old days, a tuneup was usually every 12,000 miles, a carb rebuild was fairly common and starting issues were more frequent, flooding the engine was not unusual and if you didn't know a fair amount about the engine, you might have trouble figuring out where to start your trouble shooting.

Now a tuneup is 50-100K miles. You might replace injectors after 100K(expensive for new ones, reasonable for rebuilt). Starting is usually a snap and flooding is a thing of the past.

I do a lot less maintenance on all the vehicles I have owned since the mid 80s. Essentially change fluids, tuneup every 50K or so, and once in a long while replace a sensor. I learned most of my mechanical skills because engines from the 60's-80s required so much more maintenance.

EGR valves have been around since at least the early 70s, but now the computer will tell you when it has gone bad. So changing the EGR has been around a long time, we just know about it now.

With a cheapie code scanner(Harbor Freight has some for something like $20 and other stores have nice ones for less than $50) you can often pinpoint the exact component that is failing or at least the subsystem. I also used to need tools like timing lights, tach/dwell meters etc, very expensive tools in relative money. Now all I need is the code reader, they are fairly simple to use. There are even ways to read code just using a paper clip, now that is a cheap tool. I haven't needed to use a timing light or dwell meter since the early 80s.

It is fun to tinker with a carb'd engine, but if I need an engine to start every time and not need any fuss for a long long time, I go with the computer controlled engines.

With modern engines we get similar or better mileage as carbed engines, and we get way better performance. For example. I have a chebby Impala SS that gets 25mph on the highway and 18mpg around town and I have taken it over 140mph(not in town ;^). The SS has performance better than almost all the old SS models except for the race special 409 which got crappy mileage. What stock carbed engine got that kind of mileage and performance in that heavy a vehicle from the 60's to 80s? I doubt you would find many. My F250 460 gets a reasonable 8-9mpg towing an 8,000# trailer, and does it all day long and can outpull many of the old carbed trucks of yesteryear, stock for stock. You can get better performance easier with carbed engines, usually, but the fuel penalty often sticks it's head up. For those who stay stock, EFI is the way to go for all around "ease of use" and performance.

Oh well, this is just my opinion. I still like to tinker, but I think things are much better than they used to be.

Jim Henderson

 

i guess its not so much the efi that i hate, its more all of the wires, hoses, and emissions crap that get in the way when im trying to do something simple like change spark plugs. i just dont see as much of the mess on carb vehicles

 

I have more problems with my EFI vehicles due to sensors and pressure regulators etc etc than I ever had with my carb vehicles. Flooding is NOT a thing of the past and the new ones are very complicated. I do have code readers and manuals and can read the codes and have a fair knowledge of computers. There is just way more things to go wrong with the new cars.

Performance wise I will agree. The active tuning that EFI gives is much better than a carb. Starting is easier for john doe in the dead of winter although I have one EFI vehicle that will not start in the dead of winter, no codes, sensors have been checked, everything is OK. Starting "crank" time is totally dependent on outside temp, and it will not start at all on cold mornings in Minnesota. It has been that way every since it was new according to the PO. Ford could not find the problem either. There are unfortunate drawbacks in that the computer can "mask" small problems until they become big problems. This has stranded me a couple of times in EFI vehicles. That check engine light sometimes does not come on until too late

 

I've got the same problem right now in my truck. I changed the plugs and wires, and it still runs like crap. I'm waiting til Wed. to take it to the Ford place so we can figure out if my injectors are good or bad. I am going to change the fuel filter though in the meantime. The tech there seems to think that since I still have the original fuel filter on it, that it let some crap through and it stopped up 3 of my 8 injectors, rendering them useless. All of the electronics are good (already been checked), the fuel pressure reg. is good (checked that too), ignition sys./timing is good (checked), I am going to check the EGR valve next, and then the injectors on Wed. I had no idea that the fuel filter was supposed to be changed at 30,000 miles. My truck now has almost 90,000 miles.

 

A stopped up fuel filter shouldn't let more crap through, it should restrict flow and cause you to have nothing when you try to load the engine.

 

Give me EFI 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. Easy cold starting, no flooding, 100,000 mile tune-ups, etc. Another possible benefit is that with theoretically less fuel dilution of the oil and cleaner running engines, life span of today's engines can be several hundred thousand miles if very well maintained.

 

I have an an EFI 5.8 liter mustang and an carbed 5.8 liter 78 F100

Car starts easier and is smoother and gets 21 mpg @ 80 MPH on the highway. Truck gets 8-10 mph @ 75 on the highway.

Thinking of adding an EFI system to my F100.

 

I respect what you're saying, but that's a bad comparison, as the truck weighs more, and is shaped like a tall brick. EFI or not, I guarantee you're not going to get that kind of mileage out of your truck.

As for cold starts, I agree for average Joe Schmo, an EFI vehicle is easier to start in the dead of winter, but for a "car guy", all it takes is keeping everything in tune to have a carbed vehicle that will start in the 0's or teens at least pretty well. And, since a carbed vehicle has a ready reserve of fuel in the float bowls, it'll ususally start with half the cranking time of the EFI vehicle anyway.

As for higher fuel consumption, fuel dilution of oil and etc., if that's happening, you're running too rich or have an ignition problem. That's all there is to it. The inherent inefficiency of a carburetor is very, very small compared to an EFI system. You lose efficiency in two places: the carb venturis which restrict airflow (slightly), and a "wet-flow" intake manifold that perhaps can't take full advantage of the rpm characteristics of the engine the way an MPFI manifold could. Nonetheless, these are minor.

The only real way EFI gets a big advantage is with real-time running feedback, but with some diligence in carb tuning, I still don't think that's a huge deal.

As far as fuel distribution, a carburetor actually has an advantage, as air pulling fuel out of the float bowls due to the pressure drop completely atomizes that fuel as it sucks it up, whereas a fuel injector does not. It breaks it up into a bunch of tiny droplets that may or may not atomize.

Basically, they each have their ups and downs. Carbs are simpler, but take more "love". EFI is more complex, but lasts a very long time with minimal adjustment or maintenance... of course, after that period of little trouble has passed, things start getting expensive.

In the end, I look at it like this: EFI is science, but tuning a carb properly is an art.

 

The tech said the filters are designed to let enough through to keep the truck running unless its got some heavy duty crap in it, which would stop up an injector, and cause it to run like it's running now.

 

Bentwantland, I have to disagree with you on a couple of points. I was always a big carb guy until I started buying newer vehicles (wanted the wife to drive something that was built in this decade) You said, "And, since a carbed vehicle has a ready reserve of fuel in the float bowls, it'll ususally start with half the cranking time of the EFI vehicle anyway...The inherent inefficiency of a carburetor is very, very small compared to an EFI system" I just dont see that. I have never had a carbed vehicle that starts better than an EFI or is less troublesome. The Sable starts on the fisrt crank, every time, no mater what the weather is doing (I don't drive the mustang in the winter). They may both have their merits but run down to any dealership and try to buy something with a carb. Maybe in Romania on one of those Stan countries, but not hare, not for the last10 years or so. All things being equal, you will not get better gas mileage out of a carburator. True, aerodynamics plays a part in the two vehicles that I have but I'm talking half mileage in the truck. As I go slower, ie 55 mph it will jump to 13 15 mpg. Unfortunately, no one drives 55 on the interstate. Lots more mechanical moving parts in a carb as well. More parts that move, more problems you have.

IMO, the advantage that a carb has over EFI is the sound. My mustang sounds good but a lot smoother than the truck. Truck sounds rough - meaner. Reminds me of the first mustang I had w/a 4 bbl carb back in 1992 (it was an 85).

Respectfully, unless you dont mind the poorer mileage and the increased maintenance, I dont see why anyone would prefer a carb over EFI. This coming from a guy that used to argue on the opposite side just 2 years ago.