Earlier I have posted a message concerning my Econoline which will not run; got some advise, but took it Friday to a garage with test equipment as I could not get it fixed.

They checked the engine out with their testbox and confirmed that the injectors would get a signal, so it was not a computer problem which is what I expected.
The MAP sensor malfunctioned and one other sensor (stupidly forgot which one) but neither would prevent the engine from running.
They 'roughly' measured the fuelpressure and diagnosed the in-tank pump to be defective; a replacement pum P74107 was in stock and they suggested this would solve the problem. Areplacement filted did not change anything.
I was however not convinced and this some more tests myself, as follows.

took the supply fuelpipe off the engine and put a gauge on the supply pipe: 40 PSI.
took the returnpipe off the engine and fitted the gauge to the engine return pipe: 40 PSI
Both tests were done with the 2 second charge from the pump after turning on the ignition, several times.

Then I started the engine on LPG and the pump pressure would, during engine run, go up to 80 PSI, with the return still blocked off with the gauge.
Put everything back to normal and installed a gauge on the fuelrail; during engine run (on propane), I have 42 PSI, when I change over to gasoline, the engine dies instantly, but I maintain the 42 PSI in the fuelrail, so it is not a matter that the pump can provide the pressure, but not the flow.

So what is wrong??????????
One more thing, during cranking on gasoline, the engine seems to fire, but as soon as the startermotor is disengaged, the engine dies.
I believe that I did prove, with my tests that the fuelpump is OK, (it cost US$ 430, the part alone, over here), but what else is wrong HELP!!!!!

Cor

 

Timing, get someone to rotate the distributor when your cranking it. Worth a shot.

 

have not read your earlier post I don't know what year your van is or how many miles but joners could be partially right your timing could be way off your symptons sound alot like the ones I had with an 86 f150 302, and when I advanced the timing ALOT it would fire up, and run kinda I could start it with ether (didn't have LPG to try) but it would not stay running. Found that the timing gear had worn the teeth almost but not quit all the way down, and had skipped a couple of teeth which retarded both the cam, and ignition timing, I would about put money on that bieng your problem you will have to pull the timing cover to check it, but it would be alot less expensive than the 430 pump just put in a new timing chain, and go.

 

My previous thread is titled "V8 5.0 liter 1993 "

This explains that I just bought the van and would normally run it on LPG as this is in Holland less than 30 % of the price of gasoline.
It has 154.000 mls on the clock.
Will try, but find it strange that you indicate the timing is far too late, thought it would run, but no power/high consumption
Thanks anyway, and will give it a shot
Where should it be (howmany degrees, and where are the marks- difficult to get at certainthings, in an Econoline.

Cor

 

not sure but I think you are saying that you have an lpg system on the vehicle that yo can switch from gas the lpg if so when it is running on lpg how does it run normally or sluggish with no power, and will running at idle can you get a timing light on it, and check the timing (timing marks are on the harmonic balancer I think the timing point is on the right side of the vehicle (to your left as you are facing the front of the veh.). The timing marks for the timing chain are on it's gears, and to see them you have to pull the front of the engine off ie water pump, harmonic balancer, then the cover you will know if it is bad without even lining up the marks if the teeth are rounded almost all the way off.
if it is the gears it could be 20deg retarded one quick check is turn you dist all the way that you can clockwise, and try and start it see if it fires, thats what triggered me into looking at my timing chain.

 

Found the timing points, one round hole in the bracket(presume his is TDC) and a pointer, guess the timing mark.

Which cylinder sparkplug to use for the timing?

Do not think is is this as the engine runs well and pulls OK on propane, but would want to check the timing anyway,

Thanks,
Cor

 

timing is always checked on #1 cyl. on a 302 that is front right side (as you are sitting in the vehicle)

 

Hi, Ive been out of town for a couple of weeks. Did you get the pickup coil and TFI module checked? If the injectors are giving the right amount of gasoline, and it has air, then all it should need is enough spark at the right time. Just go back to the basics of fuel, spark, and air. Pull a plug and with the wire attached- see if it's sparking. Does LPG require a totaly different timing setting than when using gasoline?

The timing should be checked at idle with the spout connecter dis-connected-once you get it running. Set it from 8-12* BTDC for gas. Also fuel pressure is checked at idle with the vacum hose not connected. Fuel pressure set this way should be about 38 psi.

 

Hi Mustang


I, too, have been off-line for some time, and also, did not have the chance yet to check your advice.
I have ordered a manual, as I do not know how to check the module or TFI
Could you assist here too?
Engine runs OK on propane, that is why the problem is not top priority, but it's got to run on gasoline also. After all, what to do if I would do when I would run out of LPG?
Also, the engine is supposed to start on gas, then change over to propane a few seconds later.
While it runs OK on propane, do you still think it is an ignition problem?

Thanks for any imput
Cor

 

I don't know..but check the timing using a timing light with it on LPG, and see if it's way different than it would be from gasoline. The module and pickup coil are in the distributor. If it sputters and almost goes on gas, the timing may be too different.

I just pulled the pickup coil and took it to autozone were they checked it using a meter and found it bad, when I was trying to figure out my brothers non running EFI 5.0. It's just a magnetic pickup that goes around the distributor shaft. The distributor still gives spark, so if there's another fuel source the motor should run, or run momentarily on any residual fuel. However, the pickup coil tells the computor what's going on. The computor must recieve a signal or it won't know how to run the fuel injection, and it will usually de-fault with out a signal from the pickup coil.

 

Well, I finally received my Chilton book today, and also got round to testing the timing, but what a pig this engine is in an Econoline.

I can either see the timing mark with a bit of fantasy,but my light can not reach it , or I can point the light on it, but I can not see it.

How do you do this??

In the above mail there is a reference to the spout connector, and I did not know what it meant, but now I think I know: next to the socket for the reader, ( and also next to the remote mounted ignition control module), I found another smaller connector with two pink wires to it, and a jumper connecting these 2 wires; it was all wrapped up in tape, like it had come this way from the factory; anyhow, I guess that this is the spout connector. The Chilton schematic refers to this thing as the "shorting bar"??(diagram 11, page 6-50)

As I said, I tried to check the timing, but simply could not do it; the only way appears to stick a mirror on a stalk and probe this from underneath in between the running belt and pulleys and a rotating fan, not something I fancy.
Anyhow, I still can not believe that this would be the source of my problem, as the engine runs OK on LPG, but dies instantly when changing over to gas.
As far as timing is concerned, LPG must have more advance than gas, so if it runs on LPG, it sure should run on gas, as the timing will not be too late.

I posted another topic yesterday, how to test an injector off the engine, as I think more than before that the engine intake plenum does not get fuel. One injector could be sticking but all 8?? (No reply so far)
I have power on the red wires on the PCM, and 42 PSI on the fuelrail,(80 with the regulator blanked off with a gauge) and am told by the 'specialist' that the injector does get a signal, and still the engine will not run at all on gas!!!!!!!!!!!

Any tips, confirmations of the above or otherwise will be appreciated.

Cor

 

Check your vacuum system. The hard plastic lines would have cracked by now, and the steel reservior corrodes. No vac controls and the engine runs badly or not at all.

 

Any idea where the steel tank is located?

Lines appear all ok on first sight, but will give it a closer look. What vac pressure should I have on low RPM? (still runs fine on propane, high and low rev.'s)
Cor

 

Probably behind the battery. Looks like a coffee can.

The vac lines which run along the side of the engine are the ones which hardened & cracked on mine. Much hotter there due to the heat rising off the exhaust manifold.

 

Well, finally some responses to earlier mentioned possibilities and things to check.

Assume that the spout connector is indeed the jumper plug near the test connector.
I checked the timing today with engine warm and spout disconnected; the timing is exactly 10 deg. BTDC and the rpm at that time is 720

With the spout connected it runs a little faster @ 780 RPM and the timing is then 14 to 16 deg. BTDC
So the timing of the ignition is OK hence the timing of the camshaft must be too.
For propane the timing should be about 4 deg. earlier, but I am not going to touch that for now, until the engine runs on gas too.
As I mentioned earlier, the shop that tested the engine did say that the injectors do get a signal. I tried this myself now on injector 8, with an analogue voltmeter, but hardly any movement on the needle. I then did the same thing with a 12 volt LED and during cranking the engine over, (switch set to gas!) I can clearly see the LED flashing.
So the injector does get a signal.
Measured the coil resistance and found it 15-16 Ohm
I compared the schematics in the Chilton manual, and find that the injectors are wired up as shown for a 1992 engine, while it left Ford in 2/1993
the 1992 injector connections are strange in my view, as 4 injectora are powered at the same time: 1-4-5-8 all wired together (wire tan and red), so injecting fuel all over the place.
But that should not be my problem as there must be more engines built this way
So, having done this, any other suggestions? Intend to get the injectors out to see if they pass fuel , after I have tried to get some carb cleaner throught it in situ, as has been suggested also.
Also checked the vac lines, but did not find any brittle, an surely not cracked; yet I can not find the vac. tank at all; my battery is on the drivers side, but can not find any tank anywhere.

Any comments welcome
Cor