I don't know at what RPM the max HP ratings are on those two motors, but
the higher HP rating for the Mustang would have to be achieved above the redline for the Cougar for that to be true.

 

AG4.0, I know you agree that the V-8 is more powerful. What I was trying to explain was that what horsepower means has nothing to do with it's tune. It's tune is what gives you higher/lower horsepower numbers. What Horsepower is about (in other words, what it means) is not how the engine is tuned.

If you have two idential engines, and for a magical reason, one can only spin at 5500 before it blows up and the other at 6200 before it blows up (redlines), where both engines torque stays the same, the one who revs higher will have more horsepower.

It doesn't have anything to do with peak hp at what rpm, it just has to do with how many rpm's it can spin.

 

To use a trucker's analogy, "torque gets you going, horsepower keeps you going."

What it comes down to is this. A big diesel, say a C16 Cat can make up to 600 HP, but the torque it produces is OVER 2000 lb/ft. The torque is needed to get the truck and trailer moving up to the cruising speed. Once there, horsepower "takes over" and that is part of the reason you will find some trucks PASSING you going UP a hill.

You have to remember that horsepower is a function of torque. If you don't have the torque, you can't make the horsepower. And like stated before, horsepower is just an arbitrary number found by the 5252 constant.

Real horsepower is a measure of "A horse will move 33000 pounds of (whatever) a distance of 1 foot in 1 minute." You could say if that same horse moved 16500 pounds 2 feet in 1 minute, it is still 1 horsepower. Or any variation of the same.

I could open up a whole new can of worms about it, because I'm not telling the whole story. But I won't. It would take too long.

 

I don't really understand that analogy because..."torque gets you going, horsepower keeps you going" doesn't really make sense/work that way. Horsepower and torque are used to get the vehicle moving and torque is what gets you up hills and such (but hp is there too, they're both just as important).

 

Yeah, bad analogy. It's more difficult to describe than it is to understand.

What we're all forgetting about here is that horsepower is just a rating. Put your truck on a dyno, it'll tell you what the hp is. But that's all useless information without knowing tire size, rear end ratio, etc. Since the hp is a product of torque, we should just throw hp out the window and forget about it.

But hp is the way we rate "power". In reality, hp is "the rate of doing work" and torque is the way we do the "work" The definition of torque is "a twisting force which may or may not result in rotation."

Think of it this way. You got a flat. So you bust out your tire iron and put it on your lug nut. You APPLY a "twisting force" on the lug nut "which may or may not" come off. OR You apply torque to the lug nut. The lug nut doesn't move, so there's no horsepower. No work being done. Once the lug nut breaks free, you start turning the lug nut. Torque is still being applied, but work is now being done. Thus, the horsepower.

How'd we get so far off topic?

 

ok here was my point... the tocoma will be faster. it may not be the most powerful feeling or tow more, but that high end power is what will win the race. thats why the s2000 will feel like a dog at all low rpms (well the new ones are better at the low end now anyways) they have no low torque. that doesn't mean the power is not there. just spin the sucker up and there it is. but spin other motors up to those revs you will not make more power, the hp starts to go down after awhile.

 

I'm sorry (don't mean to be rude) but texan you've got some reading to do about engines, I can't explain all this. The tacoma may or may not win the race, it's too difficult to tell from this position as there are too many variables. Whatever it is it will be a close race. If you put a viper against the ranger I can easily say the viper would win because the difference is great enough that, we all know it would just win. Yes the s2000 makes it's more torque at a higher RPM, but what actually makes the car fast is that it is very light, and has a pretty powerful motor.

Nobody forgot that hp is just a rating, i said that in different words above,

"horsepower is not a phyiscal measurement of anything, it's just a number. It's a mathematical calculation of torque and RPM. Torque is the rotational force created being measured in ft-lbs, which is a physical force. Torque is how much work is done while horsepower his how fast/quick work is done."

HP numbers off a dyno are calculated by the dyno putting a load on the truck, measuring that load and measuring how quickly the truck can accelerate. Tire size/gear ratio are used to arrive at these figures but the dyno will show the stats of the engine. It just shows these statistics after driveline and accessory power loss, which you'd see people label as horsepower/torque "at the wheels".

Hp is a product of torque AND RPM, and is an important figure we can't just throw it out the window.

You said, "But hp is the way we rate "power". In reality, hp is "the rate of doing work" and torque is the way we do the "work", which is partially true, but torque isn't the way we do the work, it's how much work is done by (an engine in this case). An engine or torque wrench would be "the way we do the work". If you torque the lug nuts to 150 ft-lbs, than 150ft-lbs of work has been accomplished. If you did it in 1 second than you'd have more "horsepower" than if you did it in 1 minute.

You are correct that horsepower is not present when the object is not moving, the but moment it moves, horsepower is there.

 

i agree that it would be close and that it's tough to tell from the info given. but i remember driving 4.0 rangers and while they felt good off the line, they seemed to run out of breath up high. but i would rather tow a trailer or load the bed of a ranger than a 4cyl tacoma. but my old tacoma wasn't great off the line, meaning i had to slip the clutch more to get going but once i spun it up it would move quicker than expected. load it down and it got kinda sad... but when it comes to racing the two unloaded i would put my money on the toyota.

and i have a decent understanding of engines, i agree with everything else you were saying about torque and hp. and even basied on how you explained it you could say the toyota would be better at a race, just not at towing or much else.

 

Since torque is the ability to do work, and HP is how much you (or the horse) can do in one minute, may I offer the ultimate oversimplification?


Torque is how much work you can do. Horsepower is how fast you can do it.

As for the original, like I said, there are many factors in the Tacoma/Ranger race. I say line 'em up.

 

Torque is not the ability to do work, it is not how much work you CAN do, horsepower is not how fast you CAN do it....

I've said this atleast twice in this thread,

Torque is how much work is done, and horsepower is how fast that work is done. See the difference in wording? What you said and what I said are not the same, they mean different things. It's almost like nobody is actually reading what I'm saying, please study it closely, it's not off the top of my head its sourced from many engine books and reputable sources

Texan, you said the ranger lost it on the high end, did you mean high RPM or high vehicle speed? If vehicle speed, than it's aerodynamics/gearing. If you meant RPM, it's the way the engine is made to run, you could put a different cam in it and push the power up in the RPM range but you want the power down lower on a truck like that. The s2000 does not have a strong motor, it's a quick motor, probably the same with the taco's engine. The ranger engine is stronger (more torque).

 

Let me see if I understand the difference between our thoughts. I reread your postings. It seems like you are talking about the actual work or twisting force or torque being produced. The actual work done and the actual speed it's done at, which is expressed as HP. Right?

I think you are being more careful with the words than I was. Upon reflection, what I said applies to looking at numbers on paper. For example, a 269 lb/ft rating is what the writer claims the engine "can do". A 300 HP rating is a claim of the speed at which the engine does it's work.

Am I getting closer?

Of course I did claim to be making an oversimplification.

 

If you're looking at a dyno sheet of an engine, you could say "that engine can produce X amount of HP and Y amount of torque"...but..that doesn't define what they mean, which is what we're...or...I...am doing. I'm trying to explain to you guys what horsepower and torque really means and what each word IS, not what it can do, where it can do it, or whatever. I am simply explaining what each one is and is a measure of.

It doesn't get any simpler than "torque is a measure of how much work is done, horsepower is a measure of how fast that work is done".

You said that "Torque is how much work you can do" as a definition, which is incorrect because that isn't a correct explanation. If you said "this engine can produce y amount of torque" than you would be fine by saying that. A better way to put it is "torque is how much work IS done". I think you've just got your ideas/thoughts mixed up

 

If the 4.0 is a standard you just might blow the doors off the taco, I use to with my 1997 4.0/5 speed/3.07 rear end/4x4. The older 4.0 develops 235 foot pounds of torque at about 3000 rpms, I do not know about the new ones. My problem was I had trouble keeping the tires hooked up and would fish tail at the 1st to 2nd gear shift a lot. Get the engine at 2K, ease out the clutch a bit until it starts to grab, then dump it all the way, just about when you have started to move, floor it to 4k+.

The 4.0 Ranger will develop more then enough torque off the line to totally overcome the standard P235s. The trick is to get going first and then keeping the 4.0 between 2.5k and 4k. You will be at 20+ mph before you even get out of 1st and 40+ before second if you time it right. I know it red lines at 6k, I would keep it to 5k for power.

 

I like to tach out first because that is the easiest for the engine, almost tach our 2nd, then when u shift into 3rd you're right in the torque band for that last pull.

If you tach out first, you're engine has pleanty of power above the torque band to still be faster in 1st.

 

i meant high end RPM's i know a cam would have helped and stuff, and as i stated i like the low end grunt the 4.0 had. which made it a fun, easy truck to drive, and what i would want in a truck engine. the tacoma was the opposite which is why i think it would win the race. it's like the s2000, like you said, it's a quick motor, but not nessisaraly powerful.

but we could argue all day long and not get anywhere so the original poster should just race the guy and tell us what happens (hopfully he tells the truth, since he sounds just a little bias) all this talk about HP and torque means nothing because it's all about how it's applied and the way it all works together.

"what looks good and looks like should work well on paper doesn't always work out so well in reality"