[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-Aug-02 AT 08:38 AM (EST)]Opinions wanted. Listen to this. Maybe I am just hearing sensitive, but here goes. My '02 has 1200 miles on it now, and I have noticed two things. I want to hear from other PSD officianado's first. Here's my dilema. Actually I have two, so I will kill two with one. Here goes...... After my PSD is good and warm, I hear, at idle, a KNOCK. It does not sound like a typical diesel knock. It does not sound like the bottom end. It is more of a "tinny" knock. So I
brought out my stethescope....long screwdriver, and listened all around. The block, both sides, heads both sides, manifolds both sides. This noise seems more defined on the left side of the valve cover bolts. I looked around for anything lose (exhaust manifold) etc. Found nothing. The motor runs fine and pulls ok. Am I just hearing normal diesel sounds, or does this seem to be a problem? It seems to be less defined when cold. Does this sound normal, or could I have a possible problem. In my opinion, if it was something heavy, I should have had failure my know.

Also, when cold and at slower steady speeds, the engine surges....not to the point that the truck jerks, but tone wise there is a skip. When it is warm, it goes away. One of our work trucks skips when cold also, so is this just a characteristic or what??????


CEEJAY

 

The surge is probably the exhaust back pressure device modulating. The purpose of this device is to hasten the warm up time for winter driving (for the heater).
The knock (in all probability) sounds like cackle from your description. This subject has been discussed at length here, on blueovalnews.com and on forddiesel.com/ so suffice it to say it is not hurting a thing. But just to be on the safe side, send me your engine serial number and I'll check to see if there is anything else that needs to be considered. The serial number should be on a label on the drivers side valve cover.

 

I've seen several studies that show that the cackle is indeed harmful, and it ends up damaging the injectors. It's a product of air in the fuel lines (a chassis problem, I know), and since there is a simple fix that usually works, why doesn't Ford acknowledge this and simply issue a TSB and fix the problem?

CEEJAY, I have a 2002 PSD, and it had the idle knock. The engine was rather loud also. I though it was normal, but after some research I found that it is NOT normal. I fixed the cackle with about $5 in parts, and with another $50 fix, the engine is now unbelievably quiet.

I went on a road trip through Texas, land of Powerstrokes, and got a chance to listen to plenty of other PSDs, and lots of them were so quiet I couldn't hear them running. It's my opinion that the sounds are not normal, and you should look into fixing the problem. If you want to send me a private message or email, I'll tell you what I have found... I don't want to clutter up the board with redundant posts.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-Aug-02 AT 03:08 PM (EST)]Hey, Joe. Cackle or not, I would like to think that even with the dead end fuel rail system.....and I admit I am writing with limited experience, that it is just an air situation. I have run Caterpillars and Cummins diesels for years, and when there has been only air introduced into the system, you just get a little knoak. I have never seen major damage from fuel irregularities, just poor performance. Also, I would like to think that with all of Navistar's experience with the PSD and 444, they would not provide a product that would need this "cackle" fix. Even though it could point to a "chassis" problem, Ford and Navistar must meet engineering requirements to provide a durable product that would not require costly warranty repairs. I find it hard to believe that this problem is "known to Ford and Navistar" but not recognized and fixed just because the TSB cost would be huge. Even if there was a past problem, I would surely think it would be addressed in newer models to eliminate future warranty claims. I understand the "fix" is relatively inexpensive and surely if it was, Navistar and Ford would just take care of it instead of risking major engine failures. I am no expert diesel mechanic, but I know how one should run, and the business of manufacturing and production. This is just my opinion, but I still want my PSD to run perfect irregardless of what my rational thinking tells me......Thanks for all the helpful info.

 

Joe, the S/N is...1944386. right off the driver's side valve cover. Please let me know what you find on this S/N.

 

I checked the data base on your engine serial number and it looks above average in every respect. It was built, tested and shipped on 5/31 of this year. There were no defects logged in assembly or test. I believe the noise you are hearing is cackle.
As you apparently know, cackle is caused by air entering the fuel system from the suction side of the fuel pump. We build these engines to Ford's specifications. We don't have cackle at the engine plant. It is a chassis problem not an engine problem. Our people went off half cocked by developing the #8 long lead injector under the apparent assumption that it was an engine problem -- it is not. So, if they get tangled in a law suit over this issue, that is what they get for being stupid.
Since you asked for my opinion, I'm going to give it to you then I'm going to drop it and let you come to what ever conclusions you want to. I have nothing to gain by not telling the truth in this matter.
Cackle is an anoying sound -- nothing more, nothing less. It is not damaging your engine or any of the components therein. It is not robbing you of any horse power or fuel mileage. It will not damage your injectors by long term running under this condition. If you've got low power or bad fuel economy you may have a problem but it is not brought on by cackle. I have a set of injectors in my possession that were run 20,000 miles in an engine that was cackling and they have just as much power as any other injectors do (I've got some other tests that I want to do on these injectors but I haven't had time as yet to get them done).
I've seen the cylinder pressure charts, heard the wav files and heard all the arguments that you have -- they are all nonsense (except the wav files -- there is no doubt that these engines are cackling). When one sets about gathering data to prove his point, it should come as no surprise if he does just that! I've heard stories about engine components that were supposedly damaged by cackle but the fact that an engine has cackle and ends up with a damaged component doesn't prove that that component wouldn't have failed without cackle. I can't prove to you that I'm right and nobody has proved (to my satisfaction) that I'm wrong, and Ford is not going to fix your truck. So, you can either turn the radio up or fix it your self. I know that choice might not set well with you but those are your choices.
Before this month is over we will have built our 2 millionth engine. I have had my hands on the worst of the worst and the only one I've had that was cackling was a T444E that was sucking air into the system from the in-valley fuel pump. The problem is real but it is not our problem -- we've never had a Ford cackling at our plant.

 

Joe.....very, very, very informative! I appreciate you researching my S/N. I am going to continue with the notion that this is mostly aggravating, more than damaging, obviously you have much more experience with the PSD than I do. However, my endless persuit of perfection....or the perfect PSD, warrants at least the fuel line change. I know Ford is not going to spend much time with me on this, that is why I am sure the info you and all others in this forum have given me is much more accurate. I would rather take the advice of real owners and not just some tech looking at pictures in a service manual.....Wait this is unfair....there are still many outstanding Ford techs out there that really know their stuff, but they are a diminishing breed. Appreciate all the help! I will post my results.


Also, LW555, got your message.....I too had a bed replacement issue with my '97.....(also, don't ask!!!!). I am going to try the upgrades.

 

I have posted a link that will show you how to reduce the "Knock". Its some at home mods that are very inexpensive and friendly to the mechanically challenged. Do a search under my screen name...
Jeff in NM...OUT

Some call it a six-pack, I call it a support group.

 

I'll check it out. I believe I have seen this link attatched to your name. I think it is the one for performance diesel out of houston??????? I am getting reasdy for the pump mod first to see how or if it works, then I am going after the tank mod, then maybe the fuel rail mod....I'll post my results through each step. Thanks!

 

I also am sort of new to diesels and my '02 seems to me to have a very loud knock. Comes from the passenger side of the block. I have 3600 miles on it and I noticed it from day one. The other day I changed the oil and while the truck was running I crawled underneath to check for leaks and the knock was deafening. Sounds like a rod knock in a old gasser. My buddy also has a '02 and when we run them side by side he claims they sound the same. I think mine is louder. Don't know if it is because of better ears or if I'm paranoid. Truck is stock, build date on mine is 12/01 and his is 5/02. The other day at Dunkin Donuts they made be shut if off at the drive up it was so loud. Do I not worry since it is under warranty and just drive it like I stole it?

 

Drive it like you stole it and read post #5 on this thread. Also, get me your serial number from the label on the drivers side head cover and I'll check the data base for additional information (if there is any), just to be on the safe side.

 

Wow... can I get some feel good info too? :-)

SN: 1810553

I'd have to admit the engine is louder than I'd like, but I don't hear the cackle everyone talks about.

What does happen, if I can explain this... On hard acceleration, if I back off ( as if I've reached my cruising speed while towing or peak a hill ) or if an upshift causes the engine speed to drop suddenly, I get a sucking sound, not so much a whistle... but the sound of pressurized air either escaping or a vacuum equalizing rapidly... I may have to record it to wave and share it. Not sure what it is or if it is harmful.

My hypothesis is that its the excess pressure in the turbo blowing off, it only happens when I'm towing.

Robert

 

DaHAMMER755, I am putting my faith with The Diesel Dude. He knows these engines inside and out!!!!! My S/N checked out with him OK, so I am going with his professional knowledge on these engines and this subject. However, I am still going to inspect the "chassis" element....ie: fuel line replacement first, then possible tank mods. I am going to see if the line mod works first, then maybe move to the tank. Joe says this condition is more anoying than anything else, so maybe you can look into the tank and line mods, and see if that quenches your concerns. I am going to try to find time to do at least the line change this weekend and see if that makes a difference. I seem to think that it may, since my idle knock comes only at idle and the level of the tank does not seem to matter. I will post my results next week!!!!!! Hope it works.

 

Joe, thanks for checking into this for me...my s/n is 1817450

Rob AKA daHammer 755

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-Aug-02 AT 05:01 AM (EST)]Both serial numbers looked very similar. 1810553, built 12/05/01 and 1817450, built 12/13/01 had above average numbers (oil pressure, etc.) but the H/P was about average which probably means they were a little tight. Both engines were shipped the same day they were built which means there were no defects logged into the system and (obviously) no repairs made. The ones that go straight through the system usually have the least amount of warranty work done on them.