Fuel experiment
#1
12-21-2002, 07:59 AM
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Fuel experiment
I have been experimenting lately with fuel to see what runs and starts the best. I saved 10 gallons from last summer of 45 cetane #2, I wanted to see how the summer fuel would react to colder weather. It was very hard to start, I had to cycle the glow plugs 2 and 3 times and then it would dump a lot of blue smoke until the engine was fully warmed up, this while the temps were in the mid 20's. I never did have any signs of jelling.
After that was gone, I tried a 50/50 blend of #1 and #2 and it would start with one cycle on the plugs and very little blue smoke, but the power was noticeably down. I could really tell the difference in the seat of the pants acceleration. In winters past, it just seems to creep up on me that, dang, this thing is down on power. After driving it the first day with this blend, I dumped in some cetane enhancing fuel conditioner and the power seemed to come up but it still needed the glow plugs to start.
That tank run low last Tuesday so I fueled up with 45 cetane straight #2 and added the fuel conditioner. The power doesn't seem to be quite there as with the summer fuel but it now starts easily without the glow plugs ( I have them switched). Yesterday it was 19 degrees and it fired up after about 1.5 seconds of cranking, just like in the summer. The conditioner states about a 3 cetane increase so that should put around 48. I am surprised at how easily it's starting without using the glow plugs, in winters past I've used 43 cetane fuel and only used the conditioner about every 3rd tankfull.
I know that the refineries change the formulation of the fuel depending on what season it is, but no one wants to say exactly what the changes are. Anyone out there on the "Inside" willing to discuss this? I also know that most consumers have no way of knowing what the cetane rating is of the fuel they are buying, since there are no laws requiring disclosure on this, it seems to be kept a big secret. The only reason I know is because I am in the transportation end of it. When I get back this evening, I'll post more on how to look for the "Good Stuff".
After that was gone, I tried a 50/50 blend of #1 and #2 and it would start with one cycle on the plugs and very little blue smoke, but the power was noticeably down. I could really tell the difference in the seat of the pants acceleration. In winters past, it just seems to creep up on me that, dang, this thing is down on power. After driving it the first day with this blend, I dumped in some cetane enhancing fuel conditioner and the power seemed to come up but it still needed the glow plugs to start.
That tank run low last Tuesday so I fueled up with 45 cetane straight #2 and added the fuel conditioner. The power doesn't seem to be quite there as with the summer fuel but it now starts easily without the glow plugs ( I have them switched). Yesterday it was 19 degrees and it fired up after about 1.5 seconds of cranking, just like in the summer. The conditioner states about a 3 cetane increase so that should put around 48. I am surprised at how easily it's starting without using the glow plugs, in winters past I've used 43 cetane fuel and only used the conditioner about every 3rd tankfull.
I know that the refineries change the formulation of the fuel depending on what season it is, but no one wants to say exactly what the changes are. Anyone out there on the "Inside" willing to discuss this? I also know that most consumers have no way of knowing what the cetane rating is of the fuel they are buying, since there are no laws requiring disclosure on this, it seems to be kept a big secret. The only reason I know is because I am in the transportation end of it. When I get back this evening, I'll post more on how to look for the "Good Stuff".
#2
12-21-2002, 08:53 AM
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Fuel experiment
Alanscott- Am I reading this correctly? You're starting your truck in 20* weather without glow plugs? You say you have them switched. You can manually turn them on and off? Kewl. If I'm reading you right, I gotta know how you did that.
Quadzilla
'95 F-350XLT Crew Cab SRW 4X4 PSD, 35X12.50X16.5's, Limited slip 4.10's, Hypermax downpipe, gutted EBPV, "Catless" in Seattle, "Renegade" 4" exhaust system, CTFD sticker, Air bags on all four corners, TYMAR intake, shimmed fpr, Diablo Delta chip, Fumoto valve, Autometer pyrometer, Sonnax valve, Tricumulator springs, Tru-Cool, HX mod, Magnefine tranny filter,
4R100 pan, Red Line synthetic in transfer case and both diffs, reverse shackle kit, big 'ol grin on driver's face.
And a wish list that gets longer every day.
(Thank God for a wife that likes big trucks.)
Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/user/quadzilla100
Quadzilla
'95 F-350XLT Crew Cab SRW 4X4 PSD, 35X12.50X16.5's, Limited slip 4.10's, Hypermax downpipe, gutted EBPV, "Catless" in Seattle, "Renegade" 4" exhaust system, CTFD sticker, Air bags on all four corners, TYMAR intake, shimmed fpr, Diablo Delta chip, Fumoto valve, Autometer pyrometer, Sonnax valve, Tricumulator springs, Tru-Cool, HX mod, Magnefine tranny filter,
4R100 pan, Red Line synthetic in transfer case and both diffs, reverse shackle kit, big 'ol grin on driver's face.
And a wish list that gets longer every day.
(Thank God for a wife that likes big trucks.)
Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/user/quadzilla100
#3
12-21-2002, 01:28 PM
summer or winter.
#4
12-21-2002, 06:05 PM
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Fuel experiment
>Alanscott- Am I reading this correctly? You're starting your
>truck in 20* weather without glow plugs? You say you
>have them switched. You can manually turn them on and
>off? Kewl. If I'm reading you right, I gotta know how you
>did that.
>
It's been a surprise to me also how much easier it's starting. The only other thing I have done to it since last winter was shimming the regulator and I can't see how that would make any difference.
Switching the glow plugs was the first hack I did to it about 3 1/2 years ago so I might be a little fuzzy on this...
Seems like the relay is always hot and the computer puts ground to it for activation. I installed a SPDT toggle switch with the pull grounded. I broke the connection at the relay and spliced in the ground from the switch. Now all I have to do is just throw the switch and it activates the glow plugs. The downside is they will be on as long as the switch is. This is a great excuse for not loaning my truck to anyone
The bottom side of the switch I tied into the torque converter lock up solenoid. Like the glow plugs, it's always hot and the computer supplies the ground. Seems like it's a purple wire with a yellow stripe and I found it down by the tranny in the wiring bundle that runs beside it. With one switch, I can either turn on the glow plugs or lock the torque converter, I can't imagine ever needing to do both at once.
>truck in 20* weather without glow plugs? You say you
>have them switched. You can manually turn them on and
>off? Kewl. If I'm reading you right, I gotta know how you
>did that.
>
It's been a surprise to me also how much easier it's starting. The only other thing I have done to it since last winter was shimming the regulator and I can't see how that would make any difference.
Switching the glow plugs was the first hack I did to it about 3 1/2 years ago so I might be a little fuzzy on this...
Seems like the relay is always hot and the computer puts ground to it for activation. I installed a SPDT toggle switch with the pull grounded. I broke the connection at the relay and spliced in the ground from the switch. Now all I have to do is just throw the switch and it activates the glow plugs. The downside is they will be on as long as the switch is. This is a great excuse for not loaning my truck to anyone
The bottom side of the switch I tied into the torque converter lock up solenoid. Like the glow plugs, it's always hot and the computer supplies the ground. Seems like it's a purple wire with a yellow stripe and I found it down by the tranny in the wiring bundle that runs beside it. With one switch, I can either turn on the glow plugs or lock the torque converter, I can't imagine ever needing to do both at once.
#5
12-21-2002, 06:43 PM
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Fuel experiment
The "Good Stuff"
All the major refineries I load at, Conoco, Phillips (although these 2 are supposedly the same now) Valero (used to be Total or Diamond Shamrock), BP Amoco, Sinclair, Texaco (now Shell) or Frontier, none will state what the cetane levels are on their diesel.
There are however, 2 independent pipelines that will say what the cetane levels are. In fact, both carry 43 and 45 cetane fuels but most stations only buy the 43, go figure. I "Follow the loads" so to speak and see what stations are buying the 45 so then I know where to buy my own diesel. I have loaded fuel at these places for major brands and they have always specified the 43 cetane.
I have noticed that the non-branded truck stops are more likely to carry the 45 while the smaller "Car" stations are more likely to carry the 43. It think it has to do with word of mouth more than anything else, nothing like a trucker bad mouthing your fuel on the CB from one coast to the other Just my opinion, but I think the major brands also sell the 43. You should see what a rip off "Midgrade" gasoline is.
I think the best way to find the 45 is to take notes on how your truck runs with their fuel. Run your tank level down and then only buy five or so gallons from different places so there is less time between different fuels in it. You'll notice the difference between the grades easy enough. If you have a non branded truck stop close by, I think that'll be your best bet. Also, if you see a tanker unloading somewhere, ask the driver if he knows what the cetane levels are. If he is a common carrier, (no major brand labels on the truck) he might just know.
hint: If he is missing all his front teeth, has one finger up his nose and yesterdays food stains on his shirt, it's not me!
His name is "Little Gene"
All the major refineries I load at, Conoco, Phillips (although these 2 are supposedly the same now) Valero (used to be Total or Diamond Shamrock), BP Amoco, Sinclair, Texaco (now Shell) or Frontier, none will state what the cetane levels are on their diesel.
There are however, 2 independent pipelines that will say what the cetane levels are. In fact, both carry 43 and 45 cetane fuels but most stations only buy the 43, go figure. I "Follow the loads" so to speak and see what stations are buying the 45 so then I know where to buy my own diesel. I have loaded fuel at these places for major brands and they have always specified the 43 cetane.
I have noticed that the non-branded truck stops are more likely to carry the 45 while the smaller "Car" stations are more likely to carry the 43. It think it has to do with word of mouth more than anything else, nothing like a trucker bad mouthing your fuel on the CB from one coast to the other
Just my opinion, but I think the major brands also sell the 43. You should see what a rip off "Midgrade" gasoline is.I think the best way to find the 45 is to take notes on how your truck runs with their fuel. Run your tank level down and then only buy five or so gallons from different places so there is less time between different fuels in it. You'll notice the difference between the grades easy enough. If you have a non branded truck stop close by, I think that'll be your best bet. Also, if you see a tanker unloading somewhere, ask the driver if he knows what the cetane levels are. If he is a common carrier, (no major brand labels on the truck) he might just know.
hint: If he is missing all his front teeth, has one finger up his nose and yesterdays food stains on his shirt, it's not me!
His name is "Little Gene"
#6
12-21-2002, 06:53 PM
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Fuel experiment
Thanks, Alan! Someday when I'm especially brave, and it's a little warmer outside, I might just install a switch.
Quadzilla
'95 F-350XLT Crew Cab SRW 4X4 PSD, 35X12.50X16.5's, Limited slip 4.10's, Hypermax downpipe, gutted EBPV, "Catless" in Seattle, "Renegade" 4" exhaust system, CTFD sticker, Air bags on all four corners, TYMAR intake, shimmed fpr, Diablo Delta chip, Fumoto valve, Autometer pyrometer, Sonnax valve, Tricumulator springs, Tru-Cool, HX mod, Magnefine tranny filter,
4R100 pan, Red Line synthetic in transfer case and both diffs, reverse shackle kit, big 'ol grin on driver's face.
And a wish list that gets longer every day.
(Thank God for a wife that likes big trucks.)
Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/user/quadzilla100
Quadzilla
'95 F-350XLT Crew Cab SRW 4X4 PSD, 35X12.50X16.5's, Limited slip 4.10's, Hypermax downpipe, gutted EBPV, "Catless" in Seattle, "Renegade" 4" exhaust system, CTFD sticker, Air bags on all four corners, TYMAR intake, shimmed fpr, Diablo Delta chip, Fumoto valve, Autometer pyrometer, Sonnax valve, Tricumulator springs, Tru-Cool, HX mod, Magnefine tranny filter,
4R100 pan, Red Line synthetic in transfer case and both diffs, reverse shackle kit, big 'ol grin on driver's face.
And a wish list that gets longer every day.
(Thank God for a wife that likes big trucks.)
Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/user/quadzilla100
#7
12-21-2002, 07:43 PM
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Fuel experiment
>That tank run low last Tuesday so I fueled up with 45 cetane
>straight #2 and added the fuel conditioner. The power
>doesn't seem to be quite there as with the summer fuel but
>it now starts easily without the glow plugs
The power wasn't the same as with summer fuel?
Isn't the 45 cetane straight #2 the summer fuel to begin with?
You're comparing summer fuel to summer fuel with a little conditioner?
You're saying the conditioner/cetane booster added to straight #2 diesel summer fuel caused a loss of power?
Clear this one up for me...Thanks.
-Bill in Colorado
>straight #2 and added the fuel conditioner. The power
>doesn't seem to be quite there as with the summer fuel but
>it now starts easily without the glow plugs
The power wasn't the same as with summer fuel?
Isn't the 45 cetane straight #2 the summer fuel to begin with?
You're comparing summer fuel to summer fuel with a little conditioner?
You're saying the conditioner/cetane booster added to straight #2 diesel summer fuel caused a loss of power?
Clear this one up for me...Thanks.
-Bill in Colorado
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#8
12-21-2002, 10:49 PM
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>Clear this one up for me...Thanks.
>
>-Bill in Colorado
I didn't say I could explain it, I just posted that I noticed it. With summer fuel, hard acceleration from a dead stop will scratch the tires in first when the manifold pressure comes up, with the fuel in it now, it won't.
>
>-Bill in Colorado
I didn't say I could explain it, I just posted that I noticed it. With summer fuel, hard acceleration from a dead stop will scratch the tires in first when the manifold pressure comes up, with the fuel in it now, it won't.
#9
12-21-2002, 11:34 PM
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#10
12-22-2002, 11:17 AM
Fuel experiment
I found this interesting link to BP/Amoco diesel info on the VW TDI webpage. DO any of you have a BP or Amoco station earby and can try this stuff out?
http://www.bpdirect.com/products/index.html
No. 2 Diesel Fuel
No. 2 is the most common grade of diesel fuel, designed for use in all diesel applications. No.2 diesel meets all ASTM D-975 specifications. Available in Low Sulfur, Low Sulfur Dyed and High Sulfur.
MSDS: No. 2 Diesel.pdf
No. 1 Diesel Fuel
No. 1 diesel fuel (also known as 1-d) is a kerosene-based diesel fuel most commonly used for low temperature operations. No.1 fuel has less wax content than No.2, thus providing lower cloud points. However, its lower specific gravity means less energy content compared to No.2. Available in Low Sulfur and Low Sulfur Dyed.
MSDS: No. 1 Diesel.pdf
Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel
Premier starts as a premium fuel right out of the refinery. There, our engineers select and blend premium quality base stocks, keeping Amoco Premier separate from other fuels every step of the process from the refinery to the tank. Then, to make it even better, we add our exclusive Guardian additive package. Furthermore, Amoco Premier LS meets or exceeds all of the Engine Manufacturers Association recommendations for diesel fuel that is "superior in quality." While most ordinary No.2 diesel fuels are typically blended to meet a cetane of 40 to 45, Amoco Premier provides a minimum 50 cetane number.
Available at selected terminals in IA, IL, IN, MI, and WI. Available in Low Sulfur, Low Sulfur Dyed and High Sulfur. In select terminals, Amoco Premier LS is available with a winterized additive for improved low-temperature performance.
Product Info: Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel LS.pdf; Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel LS Winter.pdf; Amoco Premier Diesel HS Off Road.pdf
Amoco PowerBlend Diesel Fuel
Amoco PowerBlend is a premium diesel fuel exceeding important industry standards with its average 50 cetane number. [Normal processing of fuels causes actual cetane to vary. Amoco PowerBlend's cetane will typically range from 47-53, but will average over 50.] Plus, the exclusive Guardian additive package helps provide protection for your vehicle investment.
Furthermore, Amoco PowerBlend meets important Engine Manufacturers Association recommendations for diesel fuel that is "superior in quality."
Available at selected terminals in IL and WI. Available in Low Sulfur and Low Sulfur Dyed. In select terminals, Amoco PowerBlend is available with a winterized additive for improved low-temperature performance.
Product Info: Amoco PowerBlend.pdf
BP Diesel Supreme
BP Diesel Supreme is simply better from the start. That's because BP Diesel Supreme is formulated from straight-run refinery stocks. BP Diesel Supreme offers superior performance with a minimum 50 cetane number, reliable cold weather starts, and long-term storage stability without sludge formation. Sign up for the free BP Diesel Supreme Protection Promise and take the easy way to help protect your investment.
Available at selected terminals in OH and KY. Available in Low Sulfur, Low Sulfur Dyed and High Sulfur.
Product Info: BP Diesel Supreme.pdf
http://www.bpdirect.com/products/index.html
No. 2 Diesel Fuel
No. 2 is the most common grade of diesel fuel, designed for use in all diesel applications. No.2 diesel meets all ASTM D-975 specifications. Available in Low Sulfur, Low Sulfur Dyed and High Sulfur.
MSDS: No. 2 Diesel.pdf
No. 1 Diesel Fuel
No. 1 diesel fuel (also known as 1-d) is a kerosene-based diesel fuel most commonly used for low temperature operations. No.1 fuel has less wax content than No.2, thus providing lower cloud points. However, its lower specific gravity means less energy content compared to No.2. Available in Low Sulfur and Low Sulfur Dyed.
MSDS: No. 1 Diesel.pdf
Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel
Premier starts as a premium fuel right out of the refinery. There, our engineers select and blend premium quality base stocks, keeping Amoco Premier separate from other fuels every step of the process from the refinery to the tank. Then, to make it even better, we add our exclusive Guardian additive package. Furthermore, Amoco Premier LS meets or exceeds all of the Engine Manufacturers Association recommendations for diesel fuel that is "superior in quality." While most ordinary No.2 diesel fuels are typically blended to meet a cetane of 40 to 45, Amoco Premier provides a minimum 50 cetane number.
Available at selected terminals in IA, IL, IN, MI, and WI. Available in Low Sulfur, Low Sulfur Dyed and High Sulfur. In select terminals, Amoco Premier LS is available with a winterized additive for improved low-temperature performance.
Product Info: Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel LS.pdf; Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel LS Winter.pdf; Amoco Premier Diesel HS Off Road.pdf
Amoco PowerBlend Diesel Fuel
Amoco PowerBlend is a premium diesel fuel exceeding important industry standards with its average 50 cetane number. [Normal processing of fuels causes actual cetane to vary. Amoco PowerBlend's cetane will typically range from 47-53, but will average over 50.] Plus, the exclusive Guardian additive package helps provide protection for your vehicle investment.
Furthermore, Amoco PowerBlend meets important Engine Manufacturers Association recommendations for diesel fuel that is "superior in quality."
Available at selected terminals in IL and WI. Available in Low Sulfur and Low Sulfur Dyed. In select terminals, Amoco PowerBlend is available with a winterized additive for improved low-temperature performance.
Product Info: Amoco PowerBlend.pdf
BP Diesel Supreme
BP Diesel Supreme is simply better from the start. That's because BP Diesel Supreme is formulated from straight-run refinery stocks. BP Diesel Supreme offers superior performance with a minimum 50 cetane number, reliable cold weather starts, and long-term storage stability without sludge formation. Sign up for the free BP Diesel Supreme Protection Promise and take the easy way to help protect your investment.
Available at selected terminals in OH and KY. Available in Low Sulfur, Low Sulfur Dyed and High Sulfur.
Product Info: BP Diesel Supreme.pdf
#11
12-22-2002, 12:16 PM
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jschira,
Good info from Amoco.
There are Amoco stations in my area but the problem is, they sell Conoco fuel. Seem weird?
They have what is known as the exchange system. Say you own a refinery in California called "ABC Gas" and I own one in New York named "XYZ Gas". If you wanted to build stations in my area, it would be impractical to ship product across the country so you and I would work out a deal. You build some stations here while I build some stations in your area. I then would sell gas to your stations to be sold as "ABC Gas" while you sell gas to me that I sell as "XYZ Gas".
The only difference would be the additives, every brand has their own trade marked "Secret" additive. Other than that, the base gasoline is can come from about anywhere, once the additive is in though, it becomes branded fuel.
Good info from Amoco.
There are Amoco stations in my area but the problem is, they sell Conoco fuel. Seem weird?
They have what is known as the exchange system. Say you own a refinery in California called "ABC Gas" and I own one in New York named "XYZ Gas". If you wanted to build stations in my area, it would be impractical to ship product across the country so you and I would work out a deal. You build some stations here while I build some stations in your area. I then would sell gas to your stations to be sold as "ABC Gas" while you sell gas to me that I sell as "XYZ Gas".
The only difference would be the additives, every brand has their own trade marked "Secret" additive. Other than that, the base gasoline is can come from about anywhere, once the additive is in though, it becomes branded fuel.
#12
12-22-2002, 03:05 PM
Fuel experiment
I found this on the Chevron website. More than you will ever want to know about diesel fuel.
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/L1_toc_fs.htm
Can't find anything on the manufacturers' website about diesel fuel specifications. i tried Flying J and TSA website too. All are mum on diesel fuel specs. Sounds like they are trying to keep it a secret.
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/L1_toc_fs.htm
Can't find anything on the manufacturers' website about diesel fuel specifications. i tried Flying J and TSA website too. All are mum on diesel fuel specs. Sounds like they are trying to keep it a secret.
#13
01-15-2003, 01:54 AM
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you're way better off than I am. In Massachusetts, most pumps are either marked minimum 40, or unmarked. I am thankful to know of a station that has minimum 42. I have heard of 45 & 50, but only in the midwest. I think a lot of that comes from plant-based (rapeseed, soybean, etc.) May be too costly to ship to other areas.
#14
01-15-2003, 10:22 AM
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Same out here too, all the pumps are unmarked and if say the word Cetane they break out the Hebrew dictionary trying to figure out what ship you just fell off of ...
I had some wierd events happen with my supertuner set in the OFFROAD setting - let it idle for 5 - 10 minutes and went to leave it would start off fine but when you gave it any pedal it was like you had the brake on or were suddenly running on 3 cylinders...
Hoping it was the winter fuel, had to set it back to the 40 HP program.. weird though... it ran several days on the OFFROAD setting then wham... that morning ...no go...
I had some wierd events happen with my supertuner set in the OFFROAD setting - let it idle for 5 - 10 minutes and went to leave it would start off fine but when you gave it any pedal it was like you had the brake on or were suddenly running on 3 cylinders...
Hoping it was the winter fuel, had to set it back to the 40 HP program.. weird though... it ran several days on the OFFROAD setting then wham... that morning ...no go...
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