Columbine update
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
From: Burlington, NC
ANAP,
I don't entirely disagree with you, it's just the two word generalization that got me a little frazzled. Religion has been used as an excuse for people to kill each other sense the beginning of time. But I do not believe a true believer will kill another man just because he is of another religion, I certainly would not. The boy's who killed these people did not do it because of religion, they were obviously demented kids who did not have any respect for human life.
I don't entirely disagree with you, it's just the two word generalization that got me a little frazzled. Religion has been used as an excuse for people to kill each other sense the beginning of time. But I do not believe a true believer will kill another man just because he is of another religion, I certainly would not. The boy's who killed these people did not do it because of religion, they were obviously demented kids who did not have any respect for human life.
Last edited by f1001978; Mar 26, 2004 at 04:02 PM.
Senior User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: NORCAL
I agree...but why are we trying to use Religion to justify making things better? Those kids obviously had horrible parenting...which stems from the fact parents cannot discipline their own kids anymore without the law or somebody getting involved. My Dad was a marine...when I was young believe me I got disciplined plenty. I hated it then but I am thankful for it now. Kids do not have any consequences for their actions like they used to in the old days (timeouts). Parenting is way too soft nowadays...part of the reason is parents are afraid to spank their kids because you can get arrested or have your kids taken from you now. I guess another reason would be both parents are working all the time and it is not like the old days where the mom would stay home and be there for the kid. Parents on average I bet spend less than 50% of the time with their kids that they used to....say 15-20+ years ago.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
From: formerly Brooklyn NY now
im not so convinced that god or prayer is the answer i think CONSIENCE and ACCOUNTABILITY have gone the way of the edsel and THAT is the problem . People say it takes a whole village to raise a child but it sure dont take the whole freakin village to take the blame of one imbicile.... the rest of my response is from a thread on another board .. makes sense to me ...
Passing of an old friend (not what you think)
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend by the name of Common Sense who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valued lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and that life isn't always fair.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are in charge). His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbeari ng regulations were set in place.
Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student only worsened his condition!
He declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student, but could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant.
Over time, Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense finally gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, spilled it in her lap, and was awarded a huge settlement from McDonalds.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion, his daughter, Responsibility, and his son, Reason. He is survived by Two Stepbrothers, My Rights and Ima Whiner.
Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
Passing of an old friend (not what you think)
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend by the name of Common Sense who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valued lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and that life isn't always fair.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are in charge). His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbeari ng regulations were set in place.
Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student only worsened his condition!
He declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student, but could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant.
Over time, Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense finally gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, spilled it in her lap, and was awarded a huge settlement from McDonalds.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion, his daughter, Responsibility, and his son, Reason. He is survived by Two Stepbrothers, My Rights and Ima Whiner.
Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
Thread Starter
|
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 12
From: Forest Hill MD
Originally Posted by oledog
What christaylor and f1001978 said. And if you all don't believe in Hell, you'd better be right. 
Chris
Edit Ranger bob that was a great post thanks.
Last edited by christaylor; Mar 26, 2004 at 09:17 PM.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
From: Eugene Oregon
Still, Cain would have a hard time clubbing a school full of classmates, and the white folks of the early history of this country, back before god was legislatively constrained, if that be the case, thought that god was in favor of genocide on the indiginous population, as they were savages who didn't pray right, so conversion or killing was an appropriate way to appropriate their land. God filled society seems as violent or more so than god less society or whatever we have now.
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
From: Bono,AR
I am proud to read that speech. I live in Jonesboro AR where a school shooting (westside middle school) happened at what used to be a very small rual community. My family and I lost someone close to us in this shooting. Everyone that lives here or knows this area never thought this would happen to a small country school like this. I think the difference between now and the good ole days, in the ole days most kids started working to live and survive at a young age and did not have time for mischief they knew if they didn't work or do thier share that there would be consequences. Now kids are waited on hand and foot and growing up not knowing what its like to do with out or have responsiblities, and they are not worried about the consequences because there are usally not any or not very hasrh. Iam not saying make your kids work at 5 years of age or beat them to death, but there are ways of controling them other than letting things slide. just my $.02
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,561
Likes: 418
From: Long Island USA
How true it is, that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"...
I do not own a gun, and probably never will, at least until my kids are out of the house. But I vigorously defend anyone's rights to own one (or a hundred), beit a flintlock from the Revolutionary War, to a full-out assault rifle. Local LI Congresswomen McCarthy ran for office after her husband was killed and her son disabled, when a guy went on a rampage on the Long Island Rail Road and started shooting up the train. Her aim was to restrict certain types of ammunition and guns, because the guy on the train used a certain type of bullet that was engineered to kill instead of just maim. OK - take a box of LEGAL .45's, alter the bullet, and get almost the same thing.
Someone in this thread said "Religion kills" - no, it doesn't. People have used "religion" as a reason to kill, but religion itself doesn't kill anyone. People kill People. Nature does too, but that's another subject
Children need more discipline and need more overall respect - it's amazing watching the kids in my neighborhood. On one side, the 10-year old kid goes outside, plays softball in the frontyard, and when I tell him to be careful and turn the game the other way so he doesn't hit my truck, Cougar, or my glass patio table (right after he came withing 5 feet of it with a foul ball), he looks at me with this disinterested look, and keeps on playing. He almost looks like he doesn't understand the concept of an adult telling him to rethink what he's doing.
Across the street, I can tell the parents are "parents as friends" not "parents as parents". 9 year old boy is out in the street playing basketball with his friends. He is the only one to use the "f" word repeatedly, the others do not. I hear both the mother and father freely spraying that word around all the time. (I do to, but cut it in front of women and children). Their 7-year old daughter is in the front yard, wet, just got out of the pool - she's asking her mother for a towel, because she's freezing and dripping wet, and can't just walk into the house, and all the mother can do is make FUN of her, like "nah nah nya nah nah" type stuff. The daughter collapsed into tears, because she just didn't know what to do with the situation. I refuse to let my kids play with their kids. Period. I (and my wife) tell them that those kids do not respect other people nor themselves, and do not follow anything even remotely like OUR rules.
I am not religious, I am an agnostic. Who knows, maybe we WERE bio-engineered by some supreme being, I'll find out after I die. Maybe...
My point is, Columbine happened because two kids decided that spraying the school with bullets was better than waiting until they graduate (or just quit). Whether it be borderline mental disease w/paranoia, lack of respect, or a general feeling that killing people was not THAT bad (like in video games), the two kids that did it are the ONLY reason it happened. If they got 500 pounds of ammonium nitrate and lit it off in the school, they would have done a heck of a lot more damage... and that's with FERTILIZER!
Their parents should have been more aware of what they were doing. Walking into a kid's room just to check it out on the visual level is well warranted as long as they are living under your roof. Looking under the beds and in drawers and closets is even more important when they hit their teens. From what I've heard of Columbine, their parents would have found plenty, like the pipe bombs...
I see responsibility for Columbine like this:
1) Klebold and the other guy
2) Their parants, because it seems they didn't really try hard to hide what they were doing.
3) Law enforcement, in a VERY small way, because these guys had been up to some stuff before the shootings, and the cops knew about it.
Not the gun makers, not the guys who sold them the guns (unless they knew it was to kill people), not the bullet manufacturers, not the people who made the box the bullets came in, or the place that did the printing on the box, or the man who pressed the button on the plastics molding machine at the place that made the pistol grips for the hand guns.
Whew!
I do not own a gun, and probably never will, at least until my kids are out of the house. But I vigorously defend anyone's rights to own one (or a hundred), beit a flintlock from the Revolutionary War, to a full-out assault rifle. Local LI Congresswomen McCarthy ran for office after her husband was killed and her son disabled, when a guy went on a rampage on the Long Island Rail Road and started shooting up the train. Her aim was to restrict certain types of ammunition and guns, because the guy on the train used a certain type of bullet that was engineered to kill instead of just maim. OK - take a box of LEGAL .45's, alter the bullet, and get almost the same thing.
Someone in this thread said "Religion kills" - no, it doesn't. People have used "religion" as a reason to kill, but religion itself doesn't kill anyone. People kill People. Nature does too, but that's another subject
Children need more discipline and need more overall respect - it's amazing watching the kids in my neighborhood. On one side, the 10-year old kid goes outside, plays softball in the frontyard, and when I tell him to be careful and turn the game the other way so he doesn't hit my truck, Cougar, or my glass patio table (right after he came withing 5 feet of it with a foul ball), he looks at me with this disinterested look, and keeps on playing. He almost looks like he doesn't understand the concept of an adult telling him to rethink what he's doing.
Across the street, I can tell the parents are "parents as friends" not "parents as parents". 9 year old boy is out in the street playing basketball with his friends. He is the only one to use the "f" word repeatedly, the others do not. I hear both the mother and father freely spraying that word around all the time. (I do to, but cut it in front of women and children). Their 7-year old daughter is in the front yard, wet, just got out of the pool - she's asking her mother for a towel, because she's freezing and dripping wet, and can't just walk into the house, and all the mother can do is make FUN of her, like "nah nah nya nah nah" type stuff. The daughter collapsed into tears, because she just didn't know what to do with the situation. I refuse to let my kids play with their kids. Period. I (and my wife) tell them that those kids do not respect other people nor themselves, and do not follow anything even remotely like OUR rules.
I am not religious, I am an agnostic. Who knows, maybe we WERE bio-engineered by some supreme being, I'll find out after I die. Maybe...
My point is, Columbine happened because two kids decided that spraying the school with bullets was better than waiting until they graduate (or just quit). Whether it be borderline mental disease w/paranoia, lack of respect, or a general feeling that killing people was not THAT bad (like in video games), the two kids that did it are the ONLY reason it happened. If they got 500 pounds of ammonium nitrate and lit it off in the school, they would have done a heck of a lot more damage... and that's with FERTILIZER!
Their parents should have been more aware of what they were doing. Walking into a kid's room just to check it out on the visual level is well warranted as long as they are living under your roof. Looking under the beds and in drawers and closets is even more important when they hit their teens. From what I've heard of Columbine, their parents would have found plenty, like the pipe bombs...
I see responsibility for Columbine like this:
1) Klebold and the other guy
2) Their parants, because it seems they didn't really try hard to hide what they were doing.
3) Law enforcement, in a VERY small way, because these guys had been up to some stuff before the shootings, and the cops knew about it.
Not the gun makers, not the guys who sold them the guns (unless they knew it was to kill people), not the bullet manufacturers, not the people who made the box the bullets came in, or the place that did the printing on the box, or the man who pressed the button on the plastics molding machine at the place that made the pistol grips for the hand guns.
Whew!
Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,919
Likes: 152
Stop feeding children dangerous drugs such as Prozak, Riddilin, etc and you wont have horendus problems like this. Growing up is difficult, but as always drugs are not the answer to problems they only make it worse. I read these children were all on these drugs, and sueicide is a common side affect.
New User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: NC