I curently own a 77 F250 that is being restored. I have owned it ten years, and plan to own it many more. For the last six years it has had a 460 EFI E4OD trans I installed. I haul a big camper and 3 snowmobiles. I like my 460, but wonder if a V-10 would be better? I can put anything in I want, but dont want to be sorry if I were to go the V-10 route. This restoration is top notch all the way. Powder coating, cad plating bolts, nickle plating tailgate hardware etc. So dont get me wrong, I want the best! I ask all you V-10 owners to be honest with your satisfaction or lack of when you respond! (just a note, a PSD will not fit I tried before the 460 conversion, it's too wide) Please don't advise on ramifications of a conversion of this caliber, I do conversions like this all the time, they are no problem.
I thank you all in advance, Brent

injectionspecialties(No Email Addresses In Posts!)


THE SURGEON GENERAL NEVER SAID A THING ABOUT SMOKIN' A CHEVY!!

 

Hey,
I will try to help with your question. There is no question that the 460 is a great motor. My father has driven one for many years. It has 100 000 miles and still does not use/burn any oil!!

With that said though, I have the V10 with 4.30 gears and love it. My wife and I go camping with my mom and dad often. We both tow travel trailers and live in a very mountainous area. My V10 does out pull his 460 on hills and gets better (though not by much) gas milage, and I have around 3000 lbs more to tow than he does.(8 ton total(truck and trailer) gross weight)

However, getting use to a high rpm SOHC engine when compared to the 460 takes time to get use to. The V10 really runs strong in the 3000 - 4500 rpm range. It is rated to tow more than the 460 and with the right gears is a towing machine!!

The only negatives that I can think of is that the gas milage is not that much better and the V10 does not have the rumble of the 460 or other V8's. Personally, I would choose the V10 if money was not a concern. Either way, you will love them and C--vy's and D--dge's will get passed by them! Good Luck!

Tim

 

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 24-Apr-01 AT 08:58 PM (EST)[/font][p]Brent,Brent,

Tim the Fishing maniac is right and he makes really good points, for comfort and a balance of power the V-10 is awsome and better than anything else availible these days. But...

The 385 series 370/429/460 are long stroke motors, small blocks 302's 351 350 etc are short stroke motors. A big block will build more and hold torque longer and harder than a small block, that is why they do not put small blocks in 99% of 2 ton and higher gas powered trucks. The V-10 is a short stroke motor, a small block, with the same sroke as a 5.4. The V-10 also has more moving parts, more wear and more friction.

It is all a matter of prefference, i have run the **** out of my 96/97 EFI 460 5speed 4.10's, headers, ported, camed, K&N, with 186000 miles, I am planning a rebuild instead of buying a V-10.

With the right parts headers, cam, porting and good pipes the 460's potential is endless. Mine holds power between 1800-4000 rpm. Alot lower than the V-10 which might be a notible disadvantage to some on the highway, I like it when i have the big 11000# goose neck on. Ford will not put a V-10 in 2 tons for the forest service, because they know it does not have the low end needed, they still special order the 429 just for cold climate vehicles.

Brent I ran several V-10's for work, now it maybe in my driving habits but i got equal mileage and could out pull those trucks with a equal or heavier load on my 460 truck; about 9.5-10 loaded and 14.42(best) empty. Thats without saying that the V-10 has some spank, but I love looking back, loaded at them on the passes, especially that tan V-10 out of Redding CA, god he was mad, I guess if he reads this he'll remember the green monster and the bright blue trailer.

Best of luck with your decision and just though i would add my two bits. No two machines are the same, if you build it and are comfortible operating it there is no stopping you till the Highway patrolman gets you.

Dusty

 

Hey Dusty,
You make some pretty strong arguements for the 460 and other long stroke engines. True, long strokes do make better stump pullers by design. However, like you said, they do it at a low rpm. Short strokes by design reduce reiprocating mass and thereby allow wider bores for increased breathing. Therefore, short stroke engines run at a much higher rpm to make the power. The benefit is the increased horsepower which gives you speed. The V10 combines both high torque and high horsepower in order to get the load moving and have it accelerate. The 460 has a very steep power band which gives a sense of more power. However, the V10's FLAT torque curve feels less exciting because it is so flat. Power is there but does not feel as dramatic as a steep curve. Why do you think I tease the diesel owners so much? Their engines go from little power until the turbo spools up and then, hang on. That is what I mean by perceived power.
You are right that if I wanted "a built" engine, I would use the 460 and C6 trans. If I wanted a tow vehicle as a daily driver, I would choose the V10.
Cheers! Tim

 

Hey Tim,

I agree with you, and your right the broader power range is great, anything is better than an oil pusher, all they have is a real quick short burst of power and they think its great till they try to wind her up to 4000 and pass. You got it though, if you are looking for the daily driver combo, the V-10 covers it all. Guess i was just trying to cover the 460 a little too much and forgot that.

Thanks, Latter.
Dusty

 

OH BOY, you both have good points. VERY GOOD points! I agree, the long stroke(due to increased leverage) makes better torque. Anything with good leverage supported by some muscle(horsepower) is going to glow on the hill. My opinion is push rod engines are soon to be a thing of the past. For good reason, extra moving parts. My big concern is the fact that the V10 is unproven still. Not on power, but the "R" word, reliability. My current 95 EFI 460 has just at 100K on it, and still uses NO oil. I say NO meaning NONE! this is the reason I am having such a tough time parting with it. (seperation anxiety) I have a computer programer that has done stuff for me in the past, and he claims 385HP from a reprogram! that is a stock engine with good exhaust and air filter. Although the 10 would be better I assume, it still is not PROVEN???? or is it??? My dilemma resumes! Thanks guys, I still have some thinking to do!! Brent



THE SURGEON GENERAL NEVER SAID A THING ABOUT SMOKIN' A CHEVY!!

 

If you ever get around to getting rid of that 460, let me know at




Daywalker
92' F-250 351 4x4 xlt 4.10 5spd supercab longbed

 

If you already have a 460 and haven't had any problems, why switch? I'd say keep the 460. What would be the reason for switching? Better gas mileage, more power? I've heard some say the 460 has more power and then others say the V-10 does. That makes me think if there is a difference in power, it can't be too much. The 460 has been around for years and years and years and you can get just about any aftermarket add on you want. You could easily take the money you want to spend on a brand new V-10 and make your existing 460 a monster. And, you already know it fits in the truck. Do you know if the V-10 will fit and how hard is it going to be to get it to fit?
Don't get me wrong, I like the V-10 and even own one but, I don't think it would be worth the hassle when you already have a great engine.

 

The v10 isnt a short stroke at 4.16 its bigger than 390-428fe blocks.It has a small bore at 3.55

 

Brent,
Athough I may be wrong, but there is NO way possible to get 385 HP out of stock 460 with just a simple reprogram of the computer. I wouldn't let anyone touch the program in the first place. Most chips/modules advance the timing thereby requiring premium fuel. Moreover, an advanced timing may lead to predetonation while towing. Some computers are really picky and will trip the Check Engine light with even simple mods. I would contact several Ford clubs in your area and ask the members who have made the changes you desire and what problems they had. Personally, if you have the 460, keep it. A V10 will require an OBD II computer, a tranny that has shift points to match the V10 torque/hp curve (4R100).
If you want better towing ability, change the gears to 4.10 or even lower, put on a free flow exhaust and call it a day. You can not beat the reliability of a fairly stock motor.If it don't stink, don't stir it!
Tim

 

Guys....Thanks for input. When I made the post, I tried to keep it simple to see where it would get me. Many of you have brought up some interesting questions wanting to know why I asked the question. Let me first introduce myself. I have restored many 73-79 F250 4x4 trucks. In the last 6 years, I've gotten into fuel-injection conversions in those trucks. For example, 78 F250 4x4 460 EFI 4sp 205 3.54 gears, my 77 F250 4x4 460 EFI/E40D automatic OD 205 4.10, 79 F250 4x4 460 EFI/E40D automatic OD NP208 3.54 gears. I've also done other makes. I completely create engine harnesses, exhaust, airboxes, etc.... I've also done OBD II stuff. I know the conversion stuff real well, although I am not an expert. I am constantly challenged with new problems to solve with each conversion I do. As you may guess, each one is different in its own way. To get a better understanding of my restoration project and answer some of your questions, let me say this: when my truck went to the body shop, it was literally only body parts. There was nothing bolted to it. The engine, trans, & all the conversion parts are on the floor of the garage. I am more than happy to use these parts in another truck since they have nearly 100k on them. This is why the question arose. I plan to purchase either a 460 from a 96 truck with only 1k on it or switch to a V10. Now is the most oportune time to make the decision. I am the type of person who knows when to scrap a bad idea before it's too late. I don't believe either of them are bad ideas. To address the question about the computer reprogram & claimed horsepower, on my 460 it uses 3 1/2" power stroke diesel exhaust & muffler from the Y back. It has a K & N snorkel air cleaner& 410 gears. It has excellent power compared to a stock 95 460. I believe the horsepower claim was made to my specific truck due to the air system in place. (I have an appt. for the dyno & the reprogram on a similar truck). We will see how it comes out. I am not interested in after market parts for the most part. It takes away from reliability. I am not concerned about OBD II. While it is different from a conversion standpoint, it is not any more difficult. It seems to me OHC engines are more efficient & smooth. It also seems they have the ability to make better power with less work than a push rod engine. My question still is 460's are great, but are V10's greater???????? Who knows? Thanks, you guys are great.
Brent

THE SURGEON GENERAL NEVER SAID A THING ABOUT SMOKIN' A CHEVY!!

 

You know I also heard a crazy rumor of somebody using a 5.4 OBD II computer and harness but splicing every thing else into a 460 powered truck to get the MAF and reprogramability of the OBD. Let me know what you have heard in that arena. Im in the process of getting parts from a 97 MAF 460 CA truck and putting them on my 96/97 Federal EFI truck.

Dusty

 

Just a little confused about some earlier comments in this string...
Let's see, short stroke vs. long stroke??? Aren't we talking about 4.16 (415 V-10) vs. 3.85 (460 V-8: 385 series, get it?).
And as far as pushrod engines on the way out, well that is certainly debatable. But c'mon, less moving parts? how about 2 more pistons, rods, 4 more valves, assorted valvetrain components, that looong timing chain, extra camshaft, etc. The SOHC motor has advantages on its own right, but not on the basis of less moving parts (OK, 16 fewer pushrods- I'll grant you that one).
As an owner of both a SD V-10 and a carbed 460, I am a fan of both- I would recommend staying with a 460 just for ease of installation, since you already have the advantage of FI. You would not gain much from the V-10 to warrant the swap. Now, if you just have to be different, it would be a cool combination... Imagine the dunce at the parts counter trying to get his computer to accept 415 V-10 for a 77 F-250 when you go to pick up parts!!!!

 

Actually what I said was "Short strokes by design reduce reciprocating mass and thereby allow wider bores for increased breathing. Therefore, short stroke engines run at a much higher rpm to make the power." However, overall mass of the engine is higher. The dent in my black top is proof of that. I personally do not think that all push rod style engines are on the way out but rather the OHC engines are becoming more prevalent in order to meet more stringent emission laws. I also agree that the 460 would be the easiest swap but I really think that if one has the money and experience, the V10 swap might be the better choice.
As for gas milage, my V10 does do better unless towing where there is little difference.
I think the original poster wants a unique truck and has the mechanical skills needed for the hardware and software problems to do the V10 swap. I say go for it!!!

 

If I was looking for easy, I would still have the old piece of s**t 351M . Who ever saw "easy" in my post??? I recall "best" as an option. Remember I only want to know whats "best". Maybe either are best, it may be a decision based on "how unique" do you want it. As for the "push rod engine" my point was only that they are geometrically inefficient! common sense says a cam on top of a valve is better than all the corners the energy must turn to open the valve from below. yes the 10 has 2 more pistons and 8 more valves, but so what it still has less valve train leverage. that has been the weak link for years. Less valve train leverage = HP . Fish is correct in saying, I have the ability to do either, was only looking for best
Thanks Guys!! Brent
THE SURGEON GENERAL NEVER SAID A THING ABOUT SMOKIN' A CHEVY!!