Ok, here is what is making me wonder. I read an article in one of the stepdad's many newpapers, i do not remember which one, and it had a article about hydrogen engines. GM had said that burning hydrogen, not fuel cells, would be more pollutant than petro. Looking at this from a scientific standpoint, where do the many nitrooxides and suppositly high CO numbers come from when there is only hydrogen burning, instead of the many carbon atoms in petro?

 

The only by product is water, simple H2O

http://www.coolsciencestuff.com/Fuelcells.html

 

Any time you have high temperature, you can oxidize the nitrogen in the air. That is why high temperature engines, while being fuel efficient also require technologies to clean up the nitro.

The big question that needs to be asked is... "Where do you get the Hydrogen?"

With current technologies, it costs more in pollution and energy to get hydrogen than we get back burning it. Maybe that is what they are talking about.

Hydrogen all sounds very neat and clean, just like electric cars, but all we are really doing is changing the type and relocating the pollution source.

Hydrogen is obtained by electrolizing water to separate the O and H. Where do you get the electricity? The law of thermo dynamics prevent the process from being 100% efficient, so you always get less usable energy out than you put in. You say we can use solar, uh huh sure. How about wind, lots of complaints about that one too. Hydro dams, sure, I live in the great North Wet and there are plenty of dams but more tree huggers, maybe we could use tree huggers for fuel. Surely we don't plan to use coal, oil or nuclear power plants to create our clean hdrogen fuel? How about processing hydro carbons, oops also requires electricity or inefficient chemical processing. Hydrogen just doesn't pan out, yet.

Someday if we get fusion to work we will have nice clean energy(depending on your point of view), but right now, we have to rob Peter to pay Paul and usually make a mess doing it.

Just my opinion based on reading,

Jim Henderson

 

That doesn't have anything to do with technology, thats the laws of thermodynamics at work. Its not possible to get more energy out of something than you put into it.

 

Here's my vote!

How many do you think will fit in my tank?

 

http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm

Last I read a Hydrogen fill station was up and running in Germany somewhere for vehicle trials.

E=MC^2 --> get a heck of a lot of energy from splitting atoms.

 

There are many different schools of thought on fuel cells, and most have some form of theoretical or actual evidence to back them up. However, fuel cells don't burn the hydrogen, it is actually a chemical reaction that combines the hydrogen with oxygen, forming chemically pure water, and electricity is a byproduct.
The thing I don't get, is how are these water emmisions going to behave? Will the streets be perpetually wet? Will there be excess humidity?
Burning hydrogen creates massive amounts of NOx, dues to the high temperatures. Also, Hydrogen is a very dangerous fuel, incredibly explosive, and is one of very few flamable gasses that spreads upward and outward. Propane, CNG, etc, all sink to the lowest point, and tend to dissipate rapidly, rather than remain in high concentrations.

 

BTW, Calif Governator Ahnold plans to have hydrogen fueling stations put up every 20 miles of road in the Golden State by something like 2020.

Should be interesting. I would love for hydrogen technology to work and having fueling stations is a big boost.

But still, where yah gonna get the hydro Ahnie?

If only cold fusion would work. That would twist our OPEC buddies undies.

Jim Henderson

 

No free lunch. I hope Arnie doesn't end up terminating the People's Republic in a giant fireball. Hydrogen looks nice on paper. Then reality throws in a bunch of roadblocks.

 

how about an on-the-fly booster untill this country gets what its going to do straight?

 

I can't believe Waxy hasn't replied yet..

The US government is spending Bil1ions right now on R&D, so I guess we're all in it together. The last I heard was they wanted a viable plan for distribution points by 2007, but like most grant funded projects - it'll probably take a lot longer.

The counter to the Hydrogen argument is always to quote Newton, a brilliant man for his time, but now behind the times about 500 years. Just because you can't visualize it in your head, doesn't mean Einstein can't mathematically prove it..

IMO, Hydrogen does take energy and does produce pollution to refine - just like fossil. However, the refineries can be located at places that will dispel the pollution and it can be metered, and controlled. Not like the byproducts of fossil, which get stuck in valleys where a lot of people live, like Denver, the Willamette, down in Fresno, the Annapolis valley over in NS, ect.

Waxy's stated that we have enough oil to last a long time. That's great, lets use it! But we should use it responsibly. I look at it kind of like the smoking debate. Why do it at a risk to others - if there's other options.

Hydrogen is explosive, that makes it a good fuel. The gas you burn in your truck is also a good fuel. Try throwing a teaspoon of the stuff on the campfire sometime and tell me it's not explosive. Think if you threw 20 gallons..

When gas leaks out on the ground it takes a while for it to turn to vapor, giving it time to leach into the ground/ ground water and increasing the time to come in contact with a combustible source. When Hydrogen leaks it rises - Fast. It's half as dense as helium. And it goes way up, past the ozone layer.

All this stuff is in its infancy right now. It'll take a while to work the kinks out, but I think it will come about. If someone tried to sell me a car today that used Model-T technology, I wouldn't buy it. Slow, dangerous, hard to crank and unable to use my AM/FM radio, it wouldn't match the current rig I have now, but they would improve it.

 

This is a very cool site for kids and adults; I am the kid and love it.
Search for anything, great reading! You can learn about dog bones or hydrogen.
Scroll down on the first page and enjoy


http://science.howstuffworks.com/