I, also, am not Catholic, so I don't claim to understand the rituals assossiated with it. I do, however, believe that having a statue of Christ is okay. Afterall, one is praying to Christ, Himself, and not to the statue. Therefore it is not idolatry. As far as praying to Mary, Catholics don't believe (I think) that she is divine. They hold her in very high reverence, as they should. As we all should. Afterall, she is the vessel that brought us our salvation!

 

Demonic, Mary isnt to be prayed to, pray to idols not God. There ya go. The open minded and over educated have it.
So now that we've urinated on the oldest chrstian religion.
Whats everyone elses religions? Let us deficate without prejudice.

No, lets not. I'd say everyone is happy with their religous station in life.

Sorry about the loss of your brother in law also. Sorry people had to take your loss and turn it into a bashing thread.

 

I don't understand this hostility (if it wasn't meant to be hostile, my apologies). If he (Greg 79 f150) hadn't wanted us to talk about this, he wouldn't have even raised the question here. BTW, where did we 'urinate on the oldest Christian religion?' and it seems to me that all invovled in the discussion were respectful to the departed. If anything, I believe this to be one of the most wholesome threads I have read on FTE to date.

STU

 

Listen guys I say demonic with no attitude. Jesus said this " I am the way the truth and the life no man (mankind) comes to the father except by Me" Now I dont know about anyone else but that sounds quite simple and to the point. There is no other name above the name of Jesus. Ill say it again Mary was blessed, yes, but why and how. You answer that yourself and youll see. She was blessed because she was chosen to bear Christ but as far as salvation she has nothing to do with that. Also she has nothing to do with prayer. We have access to God by our faith in Jesus Christ not Mary. Show me where that is written, you wont be able to because its not there. So when I say demonic it means this, where did this doctrine come from? Not from Christ. Jesus said if your not with me your against me ( Matt 12:30 ). The bible warns of prayers in vain repetition. The catholic religion tells of a pennance of multiple hail mary's. What does that mean? And what does hail mary mean Id rather pray a hail Jesus. Its like throwing a bounce pass, or asking your friend to ask out a girl for you. Its indirect at its least description. I would think that a doctrine contrary to what Jesus taught would be demonic. Do you think that its a fleeting thing, no big deal? I dont think so especially when the bible is very clear that we should not be part of these things. So there is no disrespect in the slightest to poster whatsoever. Im sorry if there was and if there was a question of my motive or any like that, please ask i dont want anyone getting the wrong idea.

 

I apoligize if my comments offened anyone.I was speaking from my personal experience in a ceremony at a Catholic church.Everyone there prayed to a statue of some saint.I was cristened Catholic as a child,though I don't practice the religon.My understanding of an idol is an image or a likeness held in high regard.Catholics I know personally have statues of Mary in their homes ,but none of Jesus,thus the high regard.They pray through her(Mary),they pray to her for forgivness,understanding,salvation,everything that other religions I personally know about pray to Jesus or God for.I don't have anything against the religion,I just don't believe the way they do.I guess I was taught differently.I truely did't mean to offend anyone.If I did ,I apoligize.

 

Peppy, thank you for taking the time to post. I am not taking any posts here personal . They are opinions and veiws , and just because I agree or disagree with them, does not make them wrong, or my views/opinions wrong. I relish in all of the posts here, because everyone has something to say I can learn from. I just try not to take a opinion personal , if I dont agree with it. I see no bashing as of yet, and I hope my thread, being of a religous nature, will not become a bashed thread. To this point , posters have been respectful in their posts, and I truly hope it remains that way until it disappears over the horizon. good day to you,

 

Greg79, Believe it or not I was at a wake today that had a catholic priest speaking at the end. What I see alot is that for the most part people are genuine. This priest knew the family and was very compassionate and you could really sense the love that he has for humanity. The fault that I see is the catholic religion itself. There is a saying " the road to hell is paved with good intentions" thats the jist that I get. Sometimes it seems that they are more loyal to being a catholic than being a Christian. At one point he had us all hold hands and he started to pray it was really good for the first thirty seconds. After that it was all tradition followed by, and I'm not kidding, at least 10 hail mary's. everyone recited and I wonder if they even know what they are even talking about.

 

I'm sorry if I took it too personal. Now that I read on past my post, I understand what you all are trying to say. I am the standard issue catholic. Weddings and funerals if I'm lucky. I went to private catholic schools. When I was a kid you were told by other kids that catholic go to hell because their not "Christian". Then at school, you were beaten down by the clergy for whatever reason. I asked many of the same questions and statements I saw here. So I guess its a reaction taught by experiance.
I must say I do respect the church greatly. Throughout the world they provide for those who cannot. Homeless shelters, orphanages, hospitals, and the like.
Catholics arent bad people. For being such a popular religion throughout, its often misunderstood by many.
Yes, many of the things done also seem to me as ingrained to the point of being trained. That, along with many other reasons are why I and so many others have wandered off.
So many people, in any religion I guess, treat going to church as political. I have met many people who do the dance at church, thinking it 'saves' them from the things they did thru the week.
If you want saved, be a good person, dont just dance for the choir and expect salvation becuase "Christians are perfect."
Arrogance in religion is not the way to salvation. Which is the reason I left organized religion altogether. If you've ever read about the dead sea scrolls, its an education, in something anyway.
I figure if I be as good a person as I can. Helping others, being honest, being humble, helping to make the world a better place, and true to myself. I've done what I can.

Oh, thats something else I noticed. The Catholic church is hardly contigous if you get my meaning. From one area to another, its almost a seperate religion. The southwest is nothing like the northeast. The south is very different from the north.
I can understand misconceptions. I still have em too.
Man, have I rambled on and on.

 

I hear you Peppy. Its a shame what the church, as a whole, has turned into. Thats why I too have taken a step back from the "organized". I would have no problem with it if it can be as Jesus required. No matter what man has done or will do, it will never take away from what it should be and what it is in Spirit. Revelations talks a lot about different churches and what goes on in them. We need to remain steadfast while everything else crumbles around us. God will keep us.

 

Isnt that sad. You're right I guess. And I can see where its actually happening all around in the whole of christianity. It is crumbling around us.
I've made my mistakes, I've seen the error in so many of my ways. I guess many if not all religions are deteriorating to some respect.
I have ventured into many aspects of religion, trying to find the path. I have come to the conclusion that in its root being, all religions are pretty much the same in stock. Even pagan religions, the questions and answers are fundamentaly the same as in christianity. If you reach far enough, eastern religions also can be said to have the same base stock. If you reach far enough.

 

You know, I have always thought of that. I think its the fact of we all came from God in the beginning. He established his ways a long time ago with Adam. Once the fall happened and every one was scattered it seems like all the truths that God has given became tainted. Since Satan had dominion now over earth he was allowed to decieve everywhere. I think thats why everything seems so close yet when you look closer you see the differences. I find it pretty neat that in almost every culture there is a form of marriage. How did that idea get around the world? Because it was already established. Thats why Jesus said go into all the world and preach the gospel in MY NAME.

 

Being Catholic, I do agree with peppy on how the church isn’t the same everywhere, I can see this in the different churches in my own town.

Don't know if this will help or not, but this is a tid-bit taken from a Catholic FAQ I found:

"Do Catholics Adore Mary?


Though English words like 'worship' and 'adoration' are occasionally used to signify only veneration, honor or affection, they are generally understood to refer to that highest type of worship reserved for God alone. In this sense, Catholics do NOT adore or worship Mary, or any other created person or thing.


The Ecumenical Council held at Nicaea in 787 considered the issue of veneration which is not directed to the Divine persons in relation to sacred images. At this Council, the Church taught that the special type of worship called adoration may only be offered to God: Latria from the Greek term for enslavement. However, the Church also acknowledged that certain persons, though only creatures of God, are entitled to honor or veneration of a qualitatively lesser degree than the absolute allegiance owed to God. The Conciliar Fathers termed this lesser devotion: Dulia. Such veneration was proper for Mary and the Saints. In view of Mary's important role in salvation history as Mother of Jesus, the Church recognized that Mary warranted a special degree of honor among the Saints. For this class of devotion, St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274) suggested the term hyperdulia.


No, Catholics do not worship Mary, if by worshiping is meant adoring. She is not God for us, has never been and will never be. Addressing prayer to Mary is like asking a dear and close friend for help. Do we make a God of our friend when asking him to keep us in his prayers? Do we divinize him/her when asking for his prayerful support in sickness and the trials of life? Believers on earth and in heaven constitute a living community which the major Christian denominations recognize as the communion of saints. The saints in heaven are not dead. Their Christian example of virtuous living and their closeness to God make of them powerful allies for us struggling mortals. They do not take God's place; they are an expression of his grace.

Likewise, there is nothing in Mary that would not have been in God and come from him. She is a pure product of God; this is the essential meaning of Mary's sinlessness. Never forget: if God wanted the exclusively direct relation between him and you and me he would never send Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, never allow scripture to be the foundation of our faith, never encourage his Son to found the Church or institute the sacraments. Christianity is the religion of mediation, essential and foundational in Christ; participative and subordinate in his Church and in varying degrees in the believers."

I personally, have never had a problem with anyone else’s religion. Whether you're Catholic, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Buddhist, WHATEVER, as long as you're a good person, mind & spirit, you're OK in my book. One of my closest and long times friends is a Jehovah’s Witness. He knows what I believe, and I know what he believes and we're both OK with that.

In my own personal experiences, I’ve never prayed outright to the Virgin Mary. I pray to God & Jesus for strength and support in my life. Being brought up in Catholicism, I have always understood our prayers to Mary as a form of thanks & reverence for giving birth to Jesus, never as idolization.

 

Munkey, thanks for the explanation and enlightenment. I can't say that I agree but it is still appreciated. One thing I was surprised to learn when I got saved was that ALL saved people are actually saints. And while we no doubt hold Mary, the 12 desciples, John the Baptist , Paul and other Biblical characters in very high esteem; praying to any of them is still not Biblical. And why would we even need to ? We have Jesus to pray to, He is omnipotent and can never be too busy. As Christians, the bible is very specific who to address our prayers to. I am not sure I would go so far as to call it demonic to pray otherwise. I am sure that God can still hear those prayers and still loves the petitioner just as much, but I just try to follow the instructions that my Bible carrys. Most of my friends are not christians and some even have contmpt for organized religion. I still love them too and as Bigorn said, I do have to leave the path occasionaly to keep my hand upon my brother or to reach out to someone in need. And many Christians would definately not agree with that. I have sat in bars half through the night to watch over a grieving unsaved brother and my Baptist pastor (at that time ) about crapped himself when he found out I was even in a bar. One of my dearest longtime friends is a bit of a rounder and weekends were made for Miller Beer. I still hang with them ocasionally when I get a chance (we live 5000 miles apart now) and over the years I can say that he has been touched by the hand of God through me. We don't do the work of Jesus by condeming anyone but by loving them like Jesus comanded. I don't think any more or less of any of my friends because of their spiritual makeup. But that does not compromise what I feel my Savior requires of me in the way I communicate with Him.

 

This SAVED thing has me all confused. "Christians" talk about being saved. They stop by in an afternoon at your door and try to 'save' you as if it were in the drive thru. How can one know that he/she has been saved at 10, 30, 60 years of age? Does God or Jesus stop by and let the blessed door to door religion salesman know who is and who isnt? Surely a mere mortal can not speak for the almighty and know that God has accepted you as a mere mortal into the kingdom of heavan while there are still many more years of life left in you. Who's to say you wont screw up? How arrogant to say that that ones self is promised a place in heaven because you had someones hand on your forehead. I guess its like I said before.....arrogance in religion is not the path to salvation. Which brings me to this question...... I see a bumper sticker on occasion that just lights me up............."Christians arent perfect, just forgiven." If thats not arrogance, I dont know what is. Did I miss something?
Isnt humility the key? The meek?

Oh, and whats wrong with hanging out in a bar and being with freinds? Monks made the first beer? Religions the world over, including Jesus himself drank wine. However many people tell me, I wont believe Jesus drank grape juice, not wine. Didnt everyone get all lit at the last supper? Mary Magdalen wasnt picked up at Bingo. I can see where glutony with alcohol can get you in trouble with the lord, as would glutony with food I guess. So if your fat and drink you havent a chance.

Anyway, I'm startin to see a soap box.

 

Good questions, peppy. And ones that need addressed. "Saved" is a word I use because every one since Jimmy Carter was president will hopefully realize it is just a term rather broadly used to mean you have accepted God for who He wants to be for you. You can know you are saved or born again when, in your heart you sincerely surender yourself to God and through obedience to Him try and do your best to live like He wants you to. The thing that has turned so many people off is that fundamental organized religion has put all the importance on the disipline part and kind of missed what is really important. And that is the love and forgiveness part.
Your place in heaven can't be guaranted because someone knocked on your door and laid there hand on your head. And you know what? You will screw up, we all do. But repentance is TRYING you best to be better . And when you do mess up you have only to ask for forgiveness and it is erased. That is what we know as grace.
You are right in that arogance is not a path to salvation, but I wouldn't totally agree with what you label as arrogance although I do see what you see. My hope and prayer is that God not be judged by those misguided people who claim to represent Him but really don't. Love is the key to it all and if love isn't in it then it is way off base. And I am not talking about some warm fuzzy feeling, I am talking about having a genuine concern for someone and wanting what is best for them.
And most of those people knocking on your door are doing it because their organization requires it of them, not necessarilly because they have a personal burden for your spiritual or physical needs.