fuel injection
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Freshman User
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: prince edward island
fuel injection
I was wondering if any one ever tried to put fuel injection parts on a carb engine without to much trouble.Changing the carb to a fuel rail system.Does itbolt right up with out changing any mager engine components except the center dome and fuel system,harness,fuel lines ,pumps etc...
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 353
Likes: 1
From: Saskatchewan, Canada
I tried this road and believe me you are going to have a hard time and in the end not get much out of it. Since I do not know the specifics of your build I can only generalize so.
1. There are subtle differences between FI and carb engines. The parts may interchange or not depending on the engine you will use, I do not have a lot of knowledge in this area since I only worked with the 302 and 351.
2. If you want to go the factory FI route, get a complete vehicle (engine, trans) with all the wiring, computer etc. This way you will not be running back to the junk yard to find something, it will be all there. In the case of in the 351, Crown Vic’s (after 85) T-Birds, and Late 80's early 90's trucks will be your best bet. The 302 can also be found in these but I recommend getting one out of a Mustang since they do not use the bank injecting method. The Mustang will also benefit you because they had mass air earlier that the rest. Mass air allows you to make more extensive modifications without getting the computer reprogrammed.
3. If you desperately want to keep your current engine they I suggest looking at an aftermarket kit from Holly, Edelbrock, Accel etc. This is by far the lest headache causing solution but also the most expensive. These kits are only available for the 302 or the 351 if you have a different engine then you need to get one of their universal kits, these kits require extensive fabrication and do not include a manifold.
4. And lastly my preferred way keep the carb. Carbs can perform just as good or better then FI and give Comparable mileage. The only real world benefit from FI besides bragging rights is the improved midrange performance and easier cold starting. In the long run you are going to spend a lot of time and money for not a lot of gain.
Disclaimer:
I only have "real world" experience with the Windsor engines any other information is a result of extensive late night combing of the net. This information given above only applies to Ford engines I have no knowledge about anything else.
Several people including from this site have successfully transplanted FI engines from late model vehicles with great success, all I am telling you is that you will not see many gains. FI is great but compared to the work involved in getting it is not the great. Don't let me discourage you; if FI is want you want then go for it, this is just a little reality.
If you do decide to go this rout you best option is to get the complete engine out of a newer vehicle (there are many available 302, 351, 460, Inline 300, V6’s whatever).
Good luck in whatever you choose, JJ
1. There are subtle differences between FI and carb engines. The parts may interchange or not depending on the engine you will use, I do not have a lot of knowledge in this area since I only worked with the 302 and 351.
2. If you want to go the factory FI route, get a complete vehicle (engine, trans) with all the wiring, computer etc. This way you will not be running back to the junk yard to find something, it will be all there. In the case of in the 351, Crown Vic’s (after 85) T-Birds, and Late 80's early 90's trucks will be your best bet. The 302 can also be found in these but I recommend getting one out of a Mustang since they do not use the bank injecting method. The Mustang will also benefit you because they had mass air earlier that the rest. Mass air allows you to make more extensive modifications without getting the computer reprogrammed.
3. If you desperately want to keep your current engine they I suggest looking at an aftermarket kit from Holly, Edelbrock, Accel etc. This is by far the lest headache causing solution but also the most expensive. These kits are only available for the 302 or the 351 if you have a different engine then you need to get one of their universal kits, these kits require extensive fabrication and do not include a manifold.
4. And lastly my preferred way keep the carb. Carbs can perform just as good or better then FI and give Comparable mileage. The only real world benefit from FI besides bragging rights is the improved midrange performance and easier cold starting. In the long run you are going to spend a lot of time and money for not a lot of gain.
Disclaimer:
I only have "real world" experience with the Windsor engines any other information is a result of extensive late night combing of the net. This information given above only applies to Ford engines I have no knowledge about anything else.
Several people including from this site have successfully transplanted FI engines from late model vehicles with great success, all I am telling you is that you will not see many gains. FI is great but compared to the work involved in getting it is not the great. Don't let me discourage you; if FI is want you want then go for it, this is just a little reality.
If you do decide to go this rout you best option is to get the complete engine out of a newer vehicle (there are many available 302, 351, 460, Inline 300, V6’s whatever).
Good luck in whatever you choose, JJ
Last edited by jj292; Jan 4, 2004 at 12:33 PM.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,222
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From: East Central Florida
EFI not so bad when understood
JJ. . . . . I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion of EFI. I have had completely different experiences with EFI myself. In fact I'm working on MAFS/TP EFI to run a 460 for myself time permiting.
I drive an 85 30th Anniv T-Bird with a GT Mustang style MAFS/TP EFI 5.0L Roller Engine & get 28mpg/avg , still running low 13 et's in street tune & trim with consistency!
I will try to be brief. All EFI is neither same nor is it equal. There 3 basic types of EFI, 2 basic logics with which they're operated.
On low end & as bad or worse than poor carburetion is CFI. The Central Fuel Induction system often wronglly called throttle body injection, is only injection before throttle plates, like the metered main jets of a carb are. These systems miss the point of EFI, and use "mechanics of Carbureted engines. CFI logic is low/ slow/ small parametered, Speed Density program based on bank firing, using MAP & O2 Sensing for their basis. These primitive systems display all and more of of the negative problems JJ mentioned.
In Middle are SEFI/TP systems. These moved injectors closer to intake ports, incorporate constant rail PSI, went from 2 total injectors to 1 injector per cylinder. Although still EEC IV & using Speed Density logic & still bank fired, they are major improvement over CFI. SEFI = Sequential Electronic Fuel Inj. SEFI systems are closer to the point of EFI, but still not ideal. They use BAP, O2, RPM/Speed sensing, this speed density program uses sequential firing, it still misses the mark slightly though.
Best, or most Ideal system, is MAFS/TP - EFI. Again it still uses EEC IV Technology, but is Mass Air Flow Sensed (MAFS), tuned port located, and is 100% sequential. Meaning it can alter signal to next Electronic Injector in sequence, as modification of last injector's signal which just fired, at speeds up to 10K RPM. IOW all cylinders of 1 bank need not fire B4 changes take effect.
MAFS or "Mass Air EFI" changes up & down revrange in accord with multiple sensor read out, huige PROM Program menu, and demand. It is Like Windows XP compared to Comodore 64, or an 80s Pac Man Game. . . . A Texas Isntrument Scientific Calculator & an abbaccus from the Ming Dynasty, sort of. . .
Multiple sensors include Mass Air Sensor, BAP, TPS, Temp, Speed RPM, OIL PSI, and more, but my point is MAFS/TP EFI is the one to use if you have a penchant for EFI (which I do). It's MAFS systems which get BIG mpg and Qwik ET's with engine HPs well over 300.
In 1736 AD Jon Bernule & assistant wrote & published a paper called "Hydrica Dynamica" (theory of Fluid Dynamics). What he wrote 350+ years ago explains why MASS AIR TUNED PORT's way to go from all aspects. 60s Hilborns got tuned port part right, but injection part remained mechanical and failed.
Digital Processor Chip, Nano and Micro-Nano Second times allow timely, adjustable, precision, control needed for best useags and maximization of electronic Injectors' performance.
YES 1736 is correct year! He also explained A/C & Refrigeration as well as commercial Vacuum Coolers used for chilling Field Produce. But that's a whole other story.
As far as putting EFI systems on non EFI Engines that depends on a whole bunch of variables you do not include, like 1st which type of system are we talking about. . . .
Generally, mass air EFI can be made to work easiest, on most engines. I know of MAFS on 53 Desoto 392 Hemi, and 21Stud 21A Flathead engine, so in short yes it can be done. But it takes some research, learning, knowledge, understanding engineering, and planning to do. That was how the engines I mentioned were done. . . . . Hope this helps you some. Oh yeah I just mentiones FoMoCo systems, and the years are roughly translated as;
83-86 cars =CFI
87 - 92cars=SEFI/TP EFI
93-up MAFS/TP EFI
Trucks recently went to MAFS, but were Bank FIred SEFI Speed Density up into the late 1990s or 2000s. Good news is SEFI system Hardware is upgradeable to MAFS Technology & Logic. It's been done many times by those having knowledge & skill.
Also E-Prom and or PROM chips can be written (burned) to do a lot of things specifically or averaged.....authors' discretion there.
It's all about control and digi-tech + EFI is all about that.
FBp
I drive an 85 30th Anniv T-Bird with a GT Mustang style MAFS/TP EFI 5.0L Roller Engine & get 28mpg/avg , still running low 13 et's in street tune & trim with consistency!
I will try to be brief. All EFI is neither same nor is it equal. There 3 basic types of EFI, 2 basic logics with which they're operated.
On low end & as bad or worse than poor carburetion is CFI. The Central Fuel Induction system often wronglly called throttle body injection, is only injection before throttle plates, like the metered main jets of a carb are. These systems miss the point of EFI, and use "mechanics of Carbureted engines. CFI logic is low/ slow/ small parametered, Speed Density program based on bank firing, using MAP & O2 Sensing for their basis. These primitive systems display all and more of of the negative problems JJ mentioned.
In Middle are SEFI/TP systems. These moved injectors closer to intake ports, incorporate constant rail PSI, went from 2 total injectors to 1 injector per cylinder. Although still EEC IV & using Speed Density logic & still bank fired, they are major improvement over CFI. SEFI = Sequential Electronic Fuel Inj. SEFI systems are closer to the point of EFI, but still not ideal. They use BAP, O2, RPM/Speed sensing, this speed density program uses sequential firing, it still misses the mark slightly though.
Best, or most Ideal system, is MAFS/TP - EFI. Again it still uses EEC IV Technology, but is Mass Air Flow Sensed (MAFS), tuned port located, and is 100% sequential. Meaning it can alter signal to next Electronic Injector in sequence, as modification of last injector's signal which just fired, at speeds up to 10K RPM. IOW all cylinders of 1 bank need not fire B4 changes take effect.
MAFS or "Mass Air EFI" changes up & down revrange in accord with multiple sensor read out, huige PROM Program menu, and demand. It is Like Windows XP compared to Comodore 64, or an 80s Pac Man Game. . . . A Texas Isntrument Scientific Calculator & an abbaccus from the Ming Dynasty, sort of. . .
Multiple sensors include Mass Air Sensor, BAP, TPS, Temp, Speed RPM, OIL PSI, and more, but my point is MAFS/TP EFI is the one to use if you have a penchant for EFI (which I do). It's MAFS systems which get BIG mpg and Qwik ET's with engine HPs well over 300.
In 1736 AD Jon Bernule & assistant wrote & published a paper called "Hydrica Dynamica" (theory of Fluid Dynamics). What he wrote 350+ years ago explains why MASS AIR TUNED PORT's way to go from all aspects. 60s Hilborns got tuned port part right, but injection part remained mechanical and failed.
Digital Processor Chip, Nano and Micro-Nano Second times allow timely, adjustable, precision, control needed for best useags and maximization of electronic Injectors' performance.
YES 1736 is correct year! He also explained A/C & Refrigeration as well as commercial Vacuum Coolers used for chilling Field Produce. But that's a whole other story.
As far as putting EFI systems on non EFI Engines that depends on a whole bunch of variables you do not include, like 1st which type of system are we talking about. . . .
Generally, mass air EFI can be made to work easiest, on most engines. I know of MAFS on 53 Desoto 392 Hemi, and 21Stud 21A Flathead engine, so in short yes it can be done. But it takes some research, learning, knowledge, understanding engineering, and planning to do. That was how the engines I mentioned were done. . . . . Hope this helps you some. Oh yeah I just mentiones FoMoCo systems, and the years are roughly translated as;
83-86 cars =CFI
87 - 92cars=SEFI/TP EFI
93-up MAFS/TP EFI
Trucks recently went to MAFS, but were Bank FIred SEFI Speed Density up into the late 1990s or 2000s. Good news is SEFI system Hardware is upgradeable to MAFS Technology & Logic. It's been done many times by those having knowledge & skill.
Also E-Prom and or PROM chips can be written (burned) to do a lot of things specifically or averaged.....authors' discretion there.
It's all about control and digi-tech + EFI is all about that.
FBp
Laughing Gas
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 957
Likes: 3
From: Winchendon MA
If your up for the challenge of building your own controller for EFI do a search for MEGASQUIRT its a stand alone controller that works great. You'll need a lap top to programs it but its cheap and easy to build and tune. Far better then OEM crap.
44
44
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 353
Likes: 1
From: Saskatchewan, Canada
Fordboy you say you disagree with my position, but from reading your post I can not see many points in where we differ in much.
All I said was that Fuel Injection is great but realisticaly it is alot of work and factory Ford FI will not provide many tangable real world benafits.
FI will give moderat fule economy increases, but when "tuned properly" a carburator will give equal or greater preformance and olny marginaly less fule economy.
And don't get me wrong FI is awsome but cost, time, and complexity has to come into consideration when considering the most apropriate system for a specific build. What may be perfect in one situation may have no benafit or do an actual diservice in another.
I did not mention throttle body injection because I have no knowlege of that setup I thought it only cam on chevys, but I have been wrong before.
I also stated that if MIKE still wanted FI after considering all the angles that his best option would be to get a complet engine out of a late modle vehicle. I suggested the ealy 90's Mustang because those 302s had mass air and sequential injecting, both of which will greatly increase the tuning and modification options avalible, aside from the basic factory advantages from the speed dencity and bank system.
And one other thing, (not 100% sure) Mike as far as I know the 302 has remained unchanged since the 60's so the parts should interchange easily. Although I still recomend getting a complet engine computer setup.
JJ
All I said was that Fuel Injection is great but realisticaly it is alot of work and factory Ford FI will not provide many tangable real world benafits.
FI will give moderat fule economy increases, but when "tuned properly" a carburator will give equal or greater preformance and olny marginaly less fule economy.
And don't get me wrong FI is awsome but cost, time, and complexity has to come into consideration when considering the most apropriate system for a specific build. What may be perfect in one situation may have no benafit or do an actual diservice in another.
I did not mention throttle body injection because I have no knowlege of that setup I thought it only cam on chevys, but I have been wrong before.
I also stated that if MIKE still wanted FI after considering all the angles that his best option would be to get a complet engine out of a late modle vehicle. I suggested the ealy 90's Mustang because those 302s had mass air and sequential injecting, both of which will greatly increase the tuning and modification options avalible, aside from the basic factory advantages from the speed dencity and bank system.
And one other thing, (not 100% sure) Mike as far as I know the 302 has remained unchanged since the 60's so the parts should interchange easily. Although I still recomend getting a complet engine computer setup.
JJ
